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Old 10-03-2019, 12:21 PM   #71
GucciGhostXXX
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Default Re: A Note about Notes

Yup... good notes are normally framed as a question IMO. I like notes when they're good. I know a good note when I'm like "Dang it... wish I'd thought of that" or "Dang it... they caught the THING I tried to slip past them."

But at a certain point you just gotta stand behind your fukkin work.

A writer buddy of mine was ADAMANT on a particular script of mine that it was a page 1. I'm like "Dude, there's no fukking way in hell I'm doing a page 1 on this... I like it." He's "Fine, it's okay as is, but would be a lot better if ____." Meaning if it was completely different and NOT what I wanted to write.

The script ultimately landed pretty well with the tastemakers. Got a few haters, but over all landed pretty good.

POINT: Fukk people who tell you it's a page 1. They just don't get you. Next.
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Old 10-03-2019, 12:33 PM   #72
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Default Re: A Note about Notes

Oh and Twitter. Yup, way too fukkin precious for me. I fukk with it here and there, but I don't feel I'm allowed to be honest like I am here.

And I don't need a fukkin affirmation in order to be able write.

Here's the most Hollywood affirmation there could ever be (I was born here): "GO FUKK YOURSELF!"

Cool. Now go write something good and ignore that.
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Old 10-03-2019, 12:41 PM   #73
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Default Re: A Note about Notes

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Originally Posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
Meh... Keep talking. Those are some of the best posts, the drunk ones. Ha!

But, yup, agreed. What is the INTENTION? I think that's what bugs me the most about notes. Very rarely does the note giver consider MY intention. Ummm... NO I DIDN'T DO IT WRONG I just did it DIFFERENTLY than how you'd do it, seeing as my life experience is different [You get that people are different, yeah?].

Which is why it's HARD for me to give notes. I'ma have lots of questions first. WHAT WERE YOU GOING FOR and WHY? To give serious notes I need to know that up front.

Notes on formating = EASY.

Notes on story = HARDER.

"BRUTALLY HONEST" implies "BRUTALLY RIGHT."

No! Bruh, it's still only your fukkin OPINION.
I disagree with you and FA4 on this point. I love you both, but we just aren't clicking on this. But I feel in our hearts, we are agreeing. Maybe it's just word choice.

I don't know how the hell you give notes with suggestions and have any chance of knowing what the writing was trying to do. I just say, this didn't work, try this. And ironically some of the posters here did that on notes given to me - so they aren't seeing that they do the same thing when given notes.

Focusing on me writing "brutally honest" when I could have wrote "honest and helpful" is BULLSH&T to me my friends. Take that!

Or saying using the word "you" is too harsh -- are we serious???? Of course all the notes are personal! They are about your creative work. All writers are going to take them personal. Am I crazy? (who said that???)

Now I know you meant attacking the writer themselves not the work -- but to me I think most writers take it as one and the same. If you only talk about the work -- trust me -- many writers see that as you telling them they are ugly and they have no worth.

Without Joe, it's really up to me to stir the pot. I'm enjoying this. I believe what I'm saying, but I could have also just let it go too. But I'm not. Because I'm making a point? Or I'm bored.

To circle back I was saying all these things you guys are posting about -- tell your feedback circle what you want before they give you notes. Your pet peeves. Don't tell me how to fix a scene, tell me what's wrong with scenes... think about what I was trying to do instead of what you would do....

I see intent like this. You give me a horror script. If I'm not scared, you failed. If you give me a comedy, If I didn't laugh, you failed for me. Now I can still gives notes -- but if I'm only judging by intention, I should say "I see you tried to make jokes on pages 1-120. Good job." Now comedy and horror are the two hardest genres because everyone has a different POV with it comes to what makes them laugh and what scares them. My favorite word SUBJECTIVE! Not my favorite word.

It's 100% easier to gives notes on drama, action, thriller, sci-fi.... they aren't easier to write -- but they are easier I feel to discuss fixes. When you get the note "make funnier" what the hell do you do with that? And I think I gave that note! Because I don't know how to fix it unless I rewrite it myself and then the writer won't find what I wrote funny either....
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Old 10-03-2019, 12:45 PM   #74
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Default Re: A Note about Notes

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One big problem writers have when soliciting feedback is that they do it TOO LATE in the process.

They've spent months crafting this story and perfecting the script and only then ask for honest feedback. At that point, it's kinda too late for major structural change. A tiny note about Act 1 unwinds all of Act 3. Even when the writer tries to make major changes, it's hard. Echoes of old themes and character arcs hang out beneath the page and everything feels messy and disjointed.

The time to ask for "brutally honest" feedback is at the pitch or treatment stage. It's easier to implement the feedback because major changes can be put in within an hour. Also, everyone understands it's not a completed project and so the giving and receiving of the notes is a far more creative and collaborative process.

There's a reason why professional assignments require pitches and treatments. And, if nothing else, if you pitch your scripts to your friends BEFORE you write it, it'll be good practice for future pitches.

Once the script is done, the feedback you solicit can be far more targeted. "How did this moment feel...?" "Did this theme come through...?" "Did you like this character...?"

It creates more of a fine-tuning process rather than a rip-it-up process.

I know this is now veering into a discussion of "to pre-write vs not-to-pre-write" and "planners vs pantsers." But the screenplay structure is so constraining and finely-tuned, that I feel it's best to get guiding feedback early in the process.
This is a great post. I agree.
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Old 10-03-2019, 12:46 PM   #75
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Default Re: A Note about Notes

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Originally Posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
Yup... good notes are normally framed as a question IMO. I like notes when they're good. I know a good note when I'm like "Dang it... wish I'd thought of that" or "Dang it... they caught the THING I tried to slip past them."

But at a certain point you just gotta stand behind your fukkin work.

A writer buddy of mine was ADAMANT on a particular script of mine that it was a page 1. I'm like "Dude, there's no fukking way in hell I'm doing a page 1 on this... I like it." He's "Fine, it's okay as is, but would be a lot better if ____." Meaning if it was completely different and NOT what I wanted to write.

The script ultimately landed pretty well with the tastemakers. Got a few haters, but over all landed pretty good.

POINT: Fukk people who tell you it's a page 1. They just don't get you. Next.
What if they say it's a page 2?

And more seriously -- what if they're right?

Stand up for your work and what you believe, but consider you may be wrong. It's not easy.
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Old 10-03-2019, 12:47 PM   #76
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Default Re: A Note about Notes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
One big problem writers have when soliciting feedback is that they do it TOO LATE in the process.

They've spent months crafting this story and perfecting the script and only then ask for honest feedback. At that point, it's kinda too late for major structural change. A tiny note about Act 1 unwinds all of Act 3. Even when the writer tries to make major changes, it's hard. Echoes of old themes and character arcs hang out beneath the page and everything feels messy and disjointed.

The time to ask for "brutally honest" feedback is at the pitch or treatment stage. It's easier to implement the feedback because major changes can be put in within an hour. Also, everyone understands it's not a completed project and so the giving and receiving of the notes is a far more creative and collaborative process.

There's a reason why professional assignments require pitches and treatments. And, if nothing else, if you pitch your scripts to your friends BEFORE you write it, it'll be good practice for future pitches.

Once the script is done, the feedback you solicit can be far more targeted. "How did this moment feel...?" "Did this theme come through...?" "Did you like this character...?"

It creates more of a fine-tuning process rather than a rip-it-up process.

I know this is now veering into a discussion of "to pre-write vs not-to-pre-write" and "planners vs pantsers." But the screenplay structure is so constraining and finely-tuned, that I feel it's best to get guiding feedback early in the process.

Good point.

That's where having a manager who gets your style is helpful as you trade the outline back and forth.

Although, I say this for the brand new writers: Just because your manager is psyched about it... that's actually an indication of NOTHING other than they like it: You may take it out and get slammed by the industry. Reps are best guessing too. No magic powers. Most of what they take out doesn't sell.
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Old 10-03-2019, 12:53 PM   #77
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Default Re: A Note about Notes

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What if they say it's a page 2?

And more seriously -- what if they're right?

Stand up for your work and what you believe, but consider you may be wrong. It's not easy.
Then you ask them to write it if you actually believe they're right. Ha!

I've never thought anyone was right when they suggested a page 1. Have you?

I always consider that I may be wrong and may have wasted my time writing this or that. And I'm usually right about that. So........ LOL
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Old 10-03-2019, 01:04 PM   #78
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Default Re: A Note about Notes

100%. I've done it. Now I wouldn't recommend this, but sure.

Love the concept, hate the pages. Try this...

Also I assume everything I write is terrible. So it's easy for me to take notes.
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Old 10-03-2019, 01:05 PM   #79
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Default Re: A Note about Notes

Vastly opposing notes happen to me all the time. I have no idea why. Nothing I write is particularly polemic, but you wouldn't know it by the notes I get.

Case in point: crime drama entered into the Nicholl this year.

First Nicholl reader: "An exceptional protagonist... Everything about this script was stellar... Riveting... Page-turning... Never a dull moment... Everything about this feels like it was written by a true professional."

The next Nicholl reader: "The main character isn't unique, neither are the villains or the story."

Um, yeah, so the script is either a blockbuster or a pile of crap? I mean, come on. There is no consistency in notes. Ever. It's no wonder writers are so confused.
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Old 10-03-2019, 01:06 PM   #80
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Default Re: A Note about Notes

...but why do you expect them to be consistent when people can't all agree a book or movie is good?

I can't even get friends to pick the same restaurant when going out.

Or my wife to like a joke I told that others like.

This is life, is it not?

We can't even agree on thread posts... just saying... everyone is an individual...

My wife is always yelling at me because she says "you get mad when I don't say what you want me to say" and I realize that's the writer in me. We want to control the world. So in our world, our scripts, everything is the way we see it. When we show our fictional world to the real world -- things go bad because we lose control...
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