Question about copyright

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  • Question about copyright

    Say you copyright a spec. It's 150 pages (this is a made up number) when you copyright it.

    But then, down the road, you cut out 30 pages to get the size down.

    You start sending your 120 page spec out - it gets sold. Your spec is now the property of a production company. They've only seen the 120 page version you sent them. When you sell it, you transfer the copyright into their name, right?

    So who owns those 30 pages you cut out? What if I wanted to use those 30 pages in the future?

    Can they somehow get a copy of the 150 page spec through the copyright office?

    I assume they own everything at that point including the 150 page version they haven't seen. Would the production company even care about those extra pages?

    Thanks!

  • #2
    Re: Question about copyright

    why would they want the crap that you cut?! i'm sure they'll cut more in the rewriting stage anyway since 120 pages is on the longish end.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Question about copyright

      Originally posted by tony6pack View Post
      Say you copyright a spec. It's 150 pages (this is a made up number) when you copyright it.

      But then, down the road, you cut out 30 pages to get the size down.

      You start sending your 120 page spec out - it gets sold. Your spec is now the property of a production company. They've only seen the 120 page version you sent them. When you sell it, you transfer the copyright into their name, right?

      So who owns those 30 pages you cut out? What if I wanted to use those 30 pages in the future?

      Can they somehow get a copy of the 150 page spec through the copyright office?

      I assume they own everything at that point including the 150 page version they haven't seen. Would the production company even care about those extra pages?

      Thanks!
      The copyright establishes legal ownership of the version that's registered with the Copyright Office. You assign that copyright to a company who buys your script. Thus, the company becomes the owner of all 150 pages of the script, even if you cut 30 pages out before you sent it to them.

      Copyright attaches to what you register. If you registered 150 pages, when you assign the copyright to a purchaser, you're assigning the copyright as is, not only a portion of it (like 120 of the 150 pages) just because you omitted some of it when you sent out your submissions.

      Not to mention the fact that a purchase of a screenplay assigns all right, title and interest to the characters, settings, etc. It's not just the words on the page that they're acquiring. So even if you wanted those 30 pages for some reason, you wouldn't be able to legally use them without the purchaser's permission, unless you fundamentally changed the characters, the setting... everything. From an intellectual property standpoint, there would be no content left in those thirty pages that you could legally use without permission of the purchaser, who acquired the rights to your script and its content.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Question about copyright

        Copy right the latest version before you sell it to the prodco. That way if there is some gem in those thirty pages you want to use elsewhere, it's not a part of what you gave the prodco. Problem solved.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Question about copyright

          Originally posted by iDV8 View Post
          Copy right the latest version before you sell it to the prodco. That way if there is some gem in those thirty pages you want to use elsewhere, it's not a part of what you gave the prodco. Problem solved.
          That's not accurate. If it's part of the same body of work (i.e. same characters, settings, etc.) those intellectual property rights go to the company along with the script when you assign the copyright. When a company buys a script, they're not just buying the words on the page... they're buying the intellectual property (i.e. the ownership and right of control over everything in that material). Whether we're talking about these thirty pages, or a short story, or another script, or a sequel, or a novel... the right to create something based on these characters, settings, etc. are purchased by the company... which means the writer no longer has the right to create material based on this intellectual property without prior permission.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Question about copyright

            Thanks for your time SoCalScribe. Some good info - answers exactly what I was wondering.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Question about copyright

              Originally posted by SoCalScribe View Post
              That's not accurate. If it's part of the same body of work (i.e. same characters, settings, etc.) those intellectual property rights go to the company along with the script when you assign the copyright. When a company buys a script, they're not just buying the words on the page... they're buying the intellectual property (i.e. the ownership and right of control over everything in that material). Whether we're talking about these thirty pages, or a short story, or another script, or a sequel, or a novel... the right to create something based on these characters, settings, etc. are purchased by the company... which means the writer no longer has the right to create material based on this intellectual property without prior permission.
              I guess what I'm imagining in this scenario is if I chop 30 pages of scenes and dialogue and if its any good, I could recycle those scenes and dialogue in another script. First thought that comes to mind is the coat hanger gag in Raiders of the Lost Ark. Spielberg used it first in 1941 and decided to cut it because it didn't work, but it fit perfectly in Raiders. If I write a clever comedy and have to slash 30 pages of quippy dialogue and great ideas in scenes I could very easily use them in the future if I don't sell them. I understand what you mean about intellectual property SoCalScribe, but I'm wondering if he's just talking about some good ideas that can be used in other scripts.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Question about copyright

                Originally posted by SoCalScribe View Post
                The copyright establishes legal ownership of the version that's registered with the Copyright Office.
                What if you haven't registered it? Registration isn't a requirement.

                Or, since cutting thirty pages is a big change, you could re register and get a separate copyright to sell.

                Obviously characters etc would be exclusive, but to use a scene you cut in a new script with totally different characters would be okay.
                Last edited by zz9; 03-04-2011, 09:09 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Question about copyright

                  I'll drive myself crazy if I try to track down where I read this, but I recall a sold writer discussing how part of the script sale often involves the studio acquiring the rights to all drafts of a screenplay that have been written, not just the final draft.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Question about copyright

                    Originally posted by TheKeenGuy View Post
                    I'll drive myself crazy if I try to track down where I read this, but I recall a sold writer discussing how part of the script sale often involves the studio acquiring the rights to all drafts of a screenplay that have been written, not just the final draft.
                    That may be common practice but surely would be subject to negotiation. Someone making their first sale might have to agree but a successful writer selling a hot script could say no.

                    And, to put it bluntly, how would they know? If you haven't registered, or only registered the final draft, how would they ever know you re used a scene discarded from an earlier draft?
                    And even if you did reuse a scene simply changing the characters and rewriting it would mean it was a new work anyway. Unless it was word for word identical how could it be an infringement?

                    If I sell a script where I had deleted a scene with a guy robbing a bank does that mean I can never write another script ever with a guy robbing a bank?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Question about copyright

                      Originally posted by zz9 View Post
                      That may be common practice but surely would be subject to negotiation. Someone making their first sale might have to agree but a successful writer selling a hot script could say no.
                      What are you basing this on? Just on theory?

                      I can understand your "how would they know?" thing, but doing a little searching, I've found so far that "all drafts, revisions, etc." is commonly included in the copyright assignment of screenplay deals.

                      The notion that a "successful writer" would balk at that, or that a studio would cede to such a bizarre demand, seems counter-intuitive to me.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Question about copyright

                        Originally posted by zz9 View Post
                        What if you haven't registered it? Registration isn't a requirement.

                        Or, since cutting thirty pages is a big change, you could re register and get a separate copyright to sell.

                        Obviously characters etc would be exclusive, but to use a scene you cut in a new script with totally different characters would be okay.
                        If a screenplay copyright has not previously been registered, it will be, in order for the studio to assert its ownership. The two scenarios I've seen are where the studio asks the writer to register it with the Copyright Office so they have a registration on file that can be assigned over... or the studio registers the copyright itself and - since they're the first registrant of the work - they become the owner pursuant to the writing agreement.

                        It doesn't matter if you re-register. Option/purchase agreements for screenplays include all right, title and interest to the property. If you registered a hundred different versions with the copyright office, they would ALL be part of the acquisition by the studio. Studio's don't like to leave loose ends on the chain of title (like a version of the material they don't own).


                        Originally posted by TheKeenGuy View Post
                        I'll drive myself crazy if I try to track down where I read this, but I recall a sold writer discussing how part of the script sale often involves the studio acquiring the rights to all drafts of a screenplay that have been written, not just the final draft.
                        True. I mean, they're not going to go back and say, "Send me your first draft," but if you've done substantive rewrites and have more than one version of a polished product... they're going to want the rights to all of them. After all, they own the property, not just the words on the page.


                        Originally posted by zz9 View Post
                        That may be common practice but surely would be subject to negotiation. Someone making their first sale might have to agree but a successful writer selling a hot script could say no.

                        And, to put it bluntly, how would they know? If you haven't registered, or only registered the final draft, how would they ever know you re used a scene discarded from an earlier draft?
                        And even if you did reuse a scene simply changing the characters and rewriting it would mean it was a new work anyway. Unless it was word for word identical how could it be an infringement?

                        If I sell a script where I had deleted a scene with a guy robbing a bank does that mean I can never write another script ever with a guy robbing a bank?
                        No, it's not subject to negotiation. When you sell a screenplay, you sell ALL of it; all right, title and interest to the property. It's non-negotiable. Studios can't perfect a chain of title for the project (which is required to release a movie) if there is a hole in the rights to the property - like the kind you'd have if they didn't own a draft or a mysterious missing thirty pages of a script. It just doesn't happen that way.

                        There are two things I'd like to point out about the second part of your post. The first is that a scene of a bank robbery (generally) isn't something you can copyright. It's not like if you sell a script with a bank robbery, you can never write another bank robbery again. Copyright protects the execution of the idea, which means you would only be stopped from writing about a bank robbery in the way the characters robbed it, as written in your first script. There's nothing wrong (or that infringes on copyright) if you later write a new scene about a bank robbery that's carried out in a different way by different characters.

                        Secondly, the comment, "Who's really going to know [if you do use those pages]" is something that I have to strongly caution you don't follow. In every option/purchase agreement, there is a Representations & Warranties section where the writer sells the work and receives the payment contingent upon the acknowledgement that the work is 100% their own, they don't owe anybody money for anything, the work hasn't been sold anywhere else, etc. etc. etc. If you were to sell the script to Studio A (which, if you look at any standard writer agreement, includes the acquisition of all right, title, and interest to the property), and then were to lift a scene (unused or not) from that script and put it into a script that was sold to Studio B, it would be a violation of your reps and warranties, and would put you in material breach of your agreement with BOTH studios, which would allow them BOTH to sue you for any and all damages - including development costs on a movie they can no longer legally release on their own. This could amount to MILLIONS of dollars in damages.

                        Is there a chance they'd never find out? I suppose so. But that's not exactly a legal defense... and are you willing to bet millions of dollars and your professional reputation that not one of the hundreds of studio employees or millions of audience members will make that connection?

                        Suggesting that someone do something illegal (and yes, what's being proposed is illegal under copyright law) based on the "how would they ever find out" justification, IMO, is incredibly irresponsible.

                        I know your post was based on the fact that a writer DIDN'T register a version first (in which case, you're right... no one would have any way of knowing what you revised from earlier drafts unless there's a paper trail or you sent that earlier version to someone and it's documented)... but the OP's question was about what happens when you register a script, then cut it, then sell that cut version. I just want to make sure it's absolutely clear that in THAT circumstance, saying "how will they know" for those edited 30 pages is a big deal.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Question about copyright

                          I recall a sold writer discussing how part of the script sale often involves the studio acquiring the rights to all drafts of a screenplay that have been written, not just the final draft.
                          As I always say, not a week goes by that I don't wish I were a lawyer.

                          So the following is just commonsense advice.

                          The point of claiming all drafts is to prevent claims by the author that he/she still owns a different version of the script as reflected in this slightly different version, or that heavily different version (but still clearly the same characters with the same dialogue in extensive passages). The point is not to root out every idea that you may have attached to the script in the course of creating it.

                          If you chop out a sequence from a script before you copyright it, you can use the sequence in a different work as long as the sequence is not a derivative work. Only the copyright owner has the right to create derivative works (think of MOVIE II, III, etc.), novelizations of films, TV shows based on films. Obviously you could have events and scenes that do not depend on the original work; they can exist independently of the original. You can cut these out and use them with different characters. Make sure that none of the extensive and significant dialogue is duplicated somewhere in the original (unlikely, but who knows?).

                          And do not copyright the work until you have removed everything that you want to save for use in a different work.

                          "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Question about copyright

                            Originally posted by ComicBent View Post

                            If you chop out a sequence from a script before you copyright it, you can use the sequence in a different work as long as the sequence is not a derivative work. Only the copyright owner has the right to create derivative works (think of MOVIE II, III, etc.), novelizations of films, TV shows based on films. Obviously you could have events and scenes that do not depend on the original work; they can exist independently of the original. You can cut these out and use them with different characters. Make sure that none of the extensive and significant dialogue is duplicated somewhere in the original (unlikely, but who knows?).
                            This is what I was suggesting. If the scene was "guy robs a bank and finds it was closed down and turned into a Starbucks a week earlier" and you ended up cutting it you could use that same idea in a later script with no problem, as long as the characters are not the same. It would be very unlikely that you would copy it word for word since merely fitting it into the new script would call for changes that would qualify it as a new work. The idea is so broad that it itself could not be copyrighted.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Question about copyright

                              Originally posted by SoCalScribe View Post
                              If a screenplay copyright has not previously been registered, it will be, in order for the studio to assert its ownership. The two scenarios I've seen are where the studio asks the writer to register it with the Copyright Office so they have a registration on file that can be assigned over... or the studio registers the copyright itself and - since they're the first registrant of the work - they become the owner pursuant to the writing agreement.

                              It doesn't matter if you re-register. Option/purchase agreements for screenplays include all right, title and interest to the property. If you registered a hundred different versions with the copyright office, they would ALL be part of the acquisition by the studio. Studio's don't like to leave loose ends on the chain of title (like a version of the material they don't own).




                              True. I mean, they're not going to go back and say, "Send me your first draft," but if you've done substantive rewrites and have more than one version of a polished product... they're going to want the rights to all of them. After all, they own the property, not just the words on the page.




                              No, it's not subject to negotiation. When you sell a screenplay, you sell ALL of it; all right, title and interest to the property. It's non-negotiable. Studios can't perfect a chain of title for the project (which is required to release a movie) if there is a hole in the rights to the property - like the kind you'd have if they didn't own a draft or a mysterious missing thirty pages of a script. It just doesn't happen that way.

                              There are two things I'd like to point out about the second part of your post. The first is that a scene of a bank robbery (generally) isn't something you can copyright. It's not like if you sell a script with a bank robbery, you can never write another bank robbery again. Copyright protects the execution of the idea, which means you would only be stopped from writing about a bank robbery in the way the characters robbed it, as written in your first script. There's nothing wrong (or that infringes on copyright) if you later write a new scene about a bank robbery that's carried out in a different way by different characters.

                              Secondly, the comment, "Who's really going to know [if you do use those pages]" is something that I have to strongly caution you don't follow. In every option/purchase agreement, there is a Representations & Warranties section where the writer sells the work and receives the payment contingent upon the acknowledgement that the work is 100% their own, they don't owe anybody money for anything, the work hasn't been sold anywhere else, etc. etc. etc. If you were to sell the script to Studio A (which, if you look at any standard writer agreement, includes the acquisition of all right, title, and interest to the property), and then were to lift a scene (unused or not) from that script and put it into a script that was sold to Studio B, it would be a violation of your reps and warranties, and would put you in material breach of your agreement with BOTH studios, which would allow them BOTH to sue you for any and all damages - including development costs on a movie they can no longer legally release on their own. This could amount to MILLIONS of dollars in damages.

                              Is there a chance they'd never find out? I suppose so. But that's not exactly a legal defense... and are you willing to bet millions of dollars and your professional reputation that not one of the hundreds of studio employees or millions of audience members will make that connection?

                              Suggesting that someone do something illegal (and yes, what's being proposed is illegal under copyright law) based on the "how would they ever find out" justification, IMO, is incredibly irresponsible.

                              I know your post was based on the fact that a writer DIDN'T register a version first (in which case, you're right... no one would have any way of knowing what you revised from earlier drafts unless there's a paper trail or you sent that earlier version to someone and it's documented)... but the OP's question was about what happens when you register a script, then cut it, then sell that cut version. I just want to make sure it's absolutely clear that in THAT circumstance, saying "how will they know" for those edited 30 pages is a big deal.
                              A few comments. For one I would not suggest trying to con a studio that has bought your script. I was asking "How would they know if you had re used an idea, not characters or cut'n'paste scenes, but an idea like my "bank robber robs a Starbucks" idea above from an earlier script. The idea is so broad that it would not be copyrightable in any way. Could a studio take action on such a broad idea?

                              Secondly everything is negotiable. Many studios have made movies where rights are split, the James Bond franchise for one. If JK Rowling had offered a studio her script for Harry Potter but said "I want to keep the character rights" the studio would have come to an agreement. With Joe Newbie Writer, no way.

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