Hiding to Nothing

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  • Hiding to Nothing

    I feel I am on one.

    I am working on a modern noir and one of the forces my protagonist, quite the anti hero, is up against is a gangster. My intention is to keep it real but herein lies the problem: the gangster is done to death in every variation.

    Real life dialogue isn't usually that snappy or memorable but a script with bland dialogue is dead in the water. Against this is that the verbose, urbane, witty, cool and collected gangster is a tired cliche dating back to the early Bond villains. Then came the uber violent and profane types of Scarface, Goodfellas, Sexy Beast and Christopher Walken patented baddies. As for the humorous, it's especially a problem with English characters as dry humour and sarcasm is hard wired into us so it's nigh on impossible not to end up with a Guy Ritchie caricature.

    Maybe I am short sighted but every variation (bar boring and dull 'real ilfe' dialogue) is cliched.

    (ps: the real gangster I am using as my inspiration really does talk like a Guy Ritchie villain. Dry, deadpan, sarcastic, profane and very, very scary).
    Last edited by 1mper1um; 04-26-2011, 03:03 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Hiding to Nothing

    Maybe you're just not talented enough Imperium.

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    • #3
      Re: Hiding to Nothing

      Originally posted by spinningdoc View Post
      Maybe you're just not talented enough Imperium.
      Perhaps you're right.

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      • #4
        Re: Hiding to Nothing

        i think you (and many others) are often short-sighted and fail to think outside the box in these circumstances. ie - o-ren ishii w/gogo yabari as her bodyguard was a pretty vicious gangster & sean nelson as fresh... need i say more?!

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        • #5
          Re: Hiding to Nothing

          I am often short sighted and fail to think outside of the box? Maybe I am but I sure as hell would like to know how you come to that conclusion after a handful of posts on such matters? I don't mind criticism when it's fair.

          I haven't seen either film you mention but that is beside the point. Practically every film I have seen features a gangster that would be considered sterotypical. I haven't seen a little known film and that means I'm guilty of your criticism?

          And the point about the real life gangster is that I want to keep it real. I don't want to pantomime him up. Yet if I used his exact words, people would still think it is cliched gangster speak that we've seen a thousand times before

          So yeah, if you're gonna comment on my posts, you *do* need to say more.

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          • #6
            Re: Hiding to Nothing

            okay so every gangster you know has come from a film you've seen. maybe this is the problem. your gangster is done to death but there are other types of gangster out there who are really real and just haven't been tapped into yet.

            i don't know your story. maybe it's about a real life gangster who fits the cliche. but if you want to be creative then you have to look elsewhere. you want that "strange attractor" that makes people take a look or do a double-take so you get noticed OR just be another in the crowd. it's your choice.

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            • #7
              Re: Hiding to Nothing

              Imperium

              Try slipping out genre for a while. Come up with some stuff about the real gangster like he's in a family drama. See if you hit on something, then re-engineer it back into genre. Having said that, I tried that technique with my last script and found that gangster dudes have to be so pathologically f***ed up to be gangster dudes that they don't seem credible even if they're in front of you.

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              • #8
                Re: Hiding to Nothing

                Originally posted by spinningdoc View Post
                gangster dudes have to be so pathologically f***ed up to be gangster dudes that they don't seem credible even if they're in front of you.
                I think that is why I am having my problem. I will just write it as he is and see how I go.

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                • #9
                  Re: Hiding to Nothing

                  Originally posted by 1mper1um View Post
                  I feel I am on one.

                  I am working on a modern noir and one of the forces my protagonist, quite the anti hero, is up against is a gangster. My intention is to keep it real but herein lies the problem: the gangster is done to death in every variation.
                  You see Winter's Bone? Animal Kingdom? A Prophet? All recent movies featuring gangsters. None of 'em seemed all that cliche. Probably because the writer considered the world in which the gangster operated. That helped to develop a fresher take on a character type you feel is "done to death".

                  Context is key. Maybe that'll help.

                  And what does Hiding to Nothing mean? And why are you on one?

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                  • #10
                    Re: Hiding to Nothing

                    Imperium,

                    Take heart in this: All the gangsters you and others have listed are pretty fvcking unique. You don't have to nail it the first time around. Your gangster may just need to be defined as you go...

                    Think of the defining details about your criminal and keep focused on those details as you're writing. Usually the criminal will take shape as you go, becoming more and more unique. Then you can go back and reshape the clumsier, more cliche iterations of your criminal with the more evolved, unique manifestation that was born as you were writing.

                    The guy I'm working on now is: country, rigid, conservative (in his actions), and bright. Meaning, those are the things I want to be alive in a given scene. As I'm writing and rewriting, those traits are shaping him into someone who will hopefully be unique.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Hiding to Nothing

                      "Unique."

                      The word of the day is, apparently, "unique."

                      Please try to use it at least four times in any post.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Hiding to Nothing

                        FWIW (probably nothing)...


                        When I am honing in on what makes a character tick, whay makes her unique and disctinct, I ask myself "what seems contradictory about this person --her traits, her actions, her attitudes... and why isn't it actually a contradiction?" Doing so forces me to learn about what makes a character the person she is (and to think about her past) as well as giving the character some depth and complexity.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Hiding to Nothing

                          I don't think real life is going to deliver unique(1) characters. In real life, most people are pretty cliche. We tend to parrot. There just aren't that many unique(2) people out there.

                          What will deliver a unique(3) character in your story is NOT reality. It will be your own unique(4) perspective on reality. After all, reality is often left up to people's interpretation.

                          Billy the Kid was a real person. By some historical accounts, he was just a common, murderous horse thief who fell a$$ backwards into fame. According to other perspectives, he was a larger-than-life outlaw who stood up against a corruption.

                          As a writer, you're going to control that interpretation and guide your audiences to your POV.

                          On a side note: Life often imitates art. Real Life gangsters are no different. They watch movies like THE GODFATHER or SCARFACE, and whether it's conscious or subconscious, they imitate what they see.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Hiding to Nothing

                            Thx all - especially BDZ for some great feedback.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Hiding to Nothing

                              Unique.

                              Just to clarify, I didn't mean to pose that the defining traits I mentioned were interesting/unique on their own.

                              They just gave me a prism to keep looking at the character until he finally became unique.

                              Unique.

                              Good luck, Imperium. Like I said, I bet as you're writing something will come up, some family member or backstory detail that will help you refine your guy.

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