How risky is this move?

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  • #61
    Re: How risky is this move?

    Originally posted by michaelb View Post
    I should have stopped engaging an hour ago...
    I will add that these little backhanded comments in which you imply that you're too good for the board are juvenile. And kind of prove the opposite--especially since there are now two professional writers who have pointed out your propensity for arguing strawmen.

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    • #62
      Re: How risky is this move?

      Originally posted by MrEarbrass View Post
      I don't understand what platitudinous posts about the relationship between managers and their clients have to do with this discussion. If I didn't value what a manager can bring to the table, I wouldn't have one.

      On point... I trust my manager and agents' taste and run all of my ideas by them. But they would never, ever ask me to do what the OP described--because they trust my taste and because they understand their role. Perhaps that comes with experience.

      Finally, one definition of a hack is applying a rule regardless of circumstance. So yeah, I stand by the opinion that if you are a manager who demands a certain number of ideas per week from all of your clients, you could probably put some more thought into the complexities of your job. That comment wasn't directed at you, by the way. I don't know you.
      And this is what is frustrating about this argument. You are reading a post and only taking half of what is said. I'll repeat, again. "Successful writers don't need help coming up with ideas the same way newly established ones do. And again, 10 is an arbitrary number". I never said I demanded anything. If you are going to argue with me, at least read what I say.

      Maybe, since this has not been made clear enough, I will say this again. If, you are trying to come up with the idea that you are going to write on spec, it is best, in my opinion to vet that idea by your reps. And, while trying to find the one that is the best idea to write on spec, while you are in that process, it is best to run X amount each week, until you find that idea. You never know what idea you send, will then start the discussion, that helps you find that best idea.

      And, even once you are writing that idea, it's still good to be coming up with new ideas.
      twitter.com/mbotti

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      • #63
        Re: How risky is this move?

        Originally posted by MrEarbrass View Post
        I will add that these little backhanded comments in which you imply that you're too good for the board are juvenile. And kind of prove the opposite--especially since there are now two professional writers who have pointed out your propensity for arguing strawmen.
        Actually, they are comments that are referring to the argumentative nature of some people on this board, that, like I just said in my last post, take half a comment and spin it in the wrong direction or twist words. Thus, saying don't engage, because it's not worth arguing if people are not understanding or misinterpreting what is being said.

        Professional writer or not (I don't know you), but I find it mildly amusing that you say I am arguing with a staw man fallocy, and then in turn, do exactly that in your last post to me. Interesting.

        But honestly, I don't know you. You could be (insert named writer here), and I would still argue that when writers are establishing themselves, they should be vetting their ideas by their reps on a regular basis until they find one that is worth their time so they have the most viable idea to present to the marketplace.
        twitter.com/mbotti

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        • #64
          Re: How risky is this move?

          Originally posted by stvnlra View Post
          10 or more per week?
          520 ideas a year sounds like a lot. And, I think in real life that's kind of a crazy number (though I may have also done it). Ideas are part of writing, and being able to generate good ideas "on the clock" is important. That article I posted a couple of weeks ago from a dozen years back had some ways to develop ideas. (http://www.scriptsecrets.net/articles/d-h-ina.htm)

          At the end of last year I had two meetings back to back with companies looking for specific types of concepts to develop. I did a blog entry on this - changing details - because the real challenge isn't just coming up with ideas, but what if you have to come up with 5 ideas based on a specific location that must be in a specific genre for a cable net like Lifetime? Oh, and they can't be things they have done before.

          So now you are limited - and Lifetime thrillers become kind of kabuki - you need the ideas that they haven't heard before but still fits all of their danged criteria.

          Within a couple of days I came up with 13 ideas for one producer - at least half that were cool enough that I might spec, and 10 for the other. The 13 were for a very specific subgenre, and the trick was to find ideas that no one else had used before. But part of what made that "easy" was what had been made before showed me what had not been made before.

          Um, I have to admit that the other guys got 10 ideas, but not all were 100% new - some were reworkings of story ideas I'd had before that were close to what they wanted and just needed a twist or two. Helps to have deep idea files.

          A few years ago a producer who had an output deal with a studio's home vid division was interested in approaching the studio with some sequels to theatricals that did okay business - just not enough to warrant a theatrical sequel. The challenge here was to find movies the studio didn't already have in the works - films that may not seem like you could make a sequel to them. The other challenge was the normal one - each idea had to have either a high concept or a "clear concept" (c BD) so the film could stand on its own. I came up with 70 ideas in a couple of weeks based on films on my DVD shelf from that studio. Well, the producer's relationship with the studio fell apart, and now I'm stuck with 70 high concept ideas... some I may spec.

          But even though I do probably come up with some ideas while I'm working on a spec or assignment - I need to stay focused on that script. I can't turn in a half-assed script - that's screwing today's customer for tomorrow's customer. Better that no one gets screwed and I focus on doing the best work on one thing at a time.

          OP's issue - that one manager I had his own agenda, and it was usually at cross purposes with my career. I don't know if he ever figured that out - he never considered that he might be wrong. One of his things was no old material ever - so a script of mine that got me all kinds of studio meetings without representation and was almost made a couple of times a decade ago he did not want to send out as a *sample*. I thought this script would land me assignments, he wasn't interested in that. So my advice would be - do you think your managers would have a negative reaction to knowing it was an "old idea"? If so - don't tell them.

          - Bill
          Free Script Tips:
          http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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          • #65
            Re: How risky is this move?

            Let me see if I can help the discussion along in a productive way from what I've read.

            Michaelb is saying that writer's should run their ideas past their reps - this is for intel reasons - meaning, to make sure the writer isn't wasting their time speccing something which half the town is trying to do, or which two studios are developing already in house with established writers. It would seem to be safe to say that most of us agree that this is a good idea.

            Where we have some divergeance is the idea of 10 ideas (or whatever number) a week. Michaelb's line of reasoning is that new writers need more handholding in the story development process than established writers, on the basis that pros have a better sense of what will work or how to make something work vs new writers, who may need more help with sifting the chaff from the wheat so to speak. Perhaps the idea behind also getting writers to come up with lots of ideas is just to keep them working, and get them attuned to being constantly in 'idea mode'.

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            • #66
              Re: How risky is this move?

              Just to weigh in on the idea of sending 10 ideas to one's reps, I would be nervous about doing that because I'd just not want to waste their time with a half-baked idea. I'd worry that they'd read so-so idea after so-so idea and after awhile start to wonder: why the hell am I repping this person?

              So even when sending ideas, I still self-vet. And i still try to give them ideas in a reasonably developed manner.

              Just as an afterthought - it's easy to describe a film that's already been made as an 'idea' (as Michaelb) did with The Hangover. Most ideas rarely emerge into the world quite so fully formed in my view.

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              • #67
                Re: How risky is this move?

                Do you guys not understand that the number doesn't matter?

                I mean, I know what's really going on here is that people are just looking for something to twist into an endless argument--it happens all the time on these threads. Botti should have disengaged a long time ago.

                But back to the question: it doesn't matter how many ideas a manager requests from his client. It doesn't matter. And no number is absolute.

                Botti, here's the mistake you made. Once the conversation became about 'how many' ideas a writer should send to a manager, you stuck by a specific number despite knowing that that number doesn't matter.

                The smart thing to do would be A) just stop responding, or B) make a quick adjustment, "okay, some writers 10 ideas a week, some writers none, but we prefer all our writers to run their ideas (couldn't spell "vet") by us."

                Sure someone would have said, "but you said 520 ideas!"...so what.

                You've gotta stop posting in this thread. In fact, you need to be out there hustling my sh!t...maybe it's time for a break from DoneDeal.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: How risky is this move?

                  Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
                  Do you guys not understand that the number doesn't matter?
                  Of course it doesn't.

                  What's being argued is the process.

                  Botti wants volume on a regular basis, believing that this kind of churn will eventually produce cream.

                  Other pro writers are saying that there are alternate ways of achieving the same goal - great material - and alternate ways of working with a manager.

                  For the some the process is slow incubation. For others, perhaps the churn is done in private and the manager sees only the cream.

                  The great takeaway from this thread, I think, for all aspiring writers, is that in your quest to land a rep, finding the RIGHT rep must always be foremost.
                  Putting yourself into a bad working relationship could be damaging, disheartening and ultimately, perhaps even a setback.

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                  • #69
                    Re: How risky is this move?

                    Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
                    But back to the question: it doesn't matter how many ideas a manager requests from his client. It doesn't matter. And no number is absolute.
                    It's about constantly trying to generate ideas instead of being in love with your old scripts and being unable to move on.

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                    • #70
                      Re: How risky is this move?

                      Originally posted by jimjimgrande View Post
                      Of course it doesn't.

                      What's being argued is the process.

                      Botti wants volume on a regular basis, believing that this kind of churn will eventually produce cream.

                      Other pro writers are saying that there are alternate ways of achieving the same goal - great material - and alternate ways of working with a manager.

                      For the some the process is slow incubation. For others, perhaps the churn is done in private and the manager sees only the cream.

                      The great takeaway from this thread, I think, for all aspiring writers, is that in your quest to land a rep, finding the RIGHT rep must always be foremost.
                      Putting yourself into a bad working relationship could be damaging, disheartening and ultimately, perhaps even a setback.
                      +1

                      The OP described a working relationship that wouldn't be productive for a lot of writers--and I'm one of them. That's why I posted. I find the eye-rolling above at endless argumentation to be lame because there was an interesting discussion to be had here, and I don't think the fault for why it didn't happen lies on this side of the debate.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: How risky is this move?

                        I agree new writers should constantly be searching for a big idea that they can execute to launch their career. If that is done in concert with their manager, great. But as a working writer, I would never sign with a management company that asked me to send them multiple ideas a week.

                        I come up with new ideas when I need to. Moreover, I come up with the idea when I have a gap in my schedule that would allow me to actually do something with it - like develop it. There's no point in having a great seed for an idea if you don't have time to develop it into a pitch or a spec.

                        The last thing on my mind when I'm pitching for a job or working on assignment is to be banging out several ideas a day. The focus of my creative energy is on the task in front of me. If an idea hits me out of the blue - great. I'll write it down and when I can do something with it, I'll work on it.

                        None of this is to say working writers don't spec or aren't working on original ideas. I'd just be very, very surprised if other working writers were sending multiple ideas a week to their reps.
                        https://twitter.com/#!/moviewriterJeff

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                        • #72
                          Re: How risky is this move?

                          Am I the only one who's wondering what michaelb cooked up?

                          EJ

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: How risky is this move?

                            Originally posted by michaelb View Post
                            I missed this from earlier. Sorry.

                            1 and 2. If they have not read it, and it's never been read by the town then I don't see there being a problem. (You would be amazing at how many projects are sent out on the tracking boards each year by some rep who just signed a client, only to have it turn out it was an old spec with a new name). Sad, but true. So while people should never be dismissive, I can understand them wanting new material to send out. Really it just comes down to having trust and communication.

                            4. I guess that just depends. If you came to me and said "I have this great spy thriller idea. I wrote a script years ago with this great character that I think works really well today. The script itself is old, but the character himself is cool and bad ass. Here is the idea for the new movie.". I wouldn't have any sort of problem with that. I guess if you are already past that stage though, you might as well keep quiet if you don't feel comfortable talking to them about it.
                            Thanks for the revised thoughts given the new info at hand. I appreciate you taking the time to weigh in with the rep POV, especially since you've been taking a few on the chin as a result.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: How risky is this move?

                              You know, I should apologize for not nipping this in the bud sooner but...where did the notion of 10 ideas a week come from? If you re-read my initial posts, I said that my first round of ten ideas were rejected and I was required to come up with ten more.

                              Don't get me wrong -- I wasn't too pleased with that situation, but I don't think any agent or manager would / should demand 10 new ideas every week.

                              And lest anyone think otherwise, I'm actually a proponent of the log line exercise. It's an easy way to flex your creative muscles and give your rep a chance to see what kind of ideas you're enthused about.

                              As far as the criticism that some new writers are too in love with their older work to move on, I don't really find it all that valid. I mean, if you have a great high-concept idea that seems fairly original given what's been selling, why should a rep turns his nose up at it on general principle? That's my big beef.

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                              • #75
                                Re: How risky is this move?

                                Originally posted by michaelb View Post
                                It can be as simple as "What about 4 guys that go to Vegas for a bachelor party, but get so hammered they lose the groom and now must find him before the wedding." From that core idea, your reps can say "Hmm, sounds pretty good, tell me more" and then you can write out the paragraph. The X amount of ideas per week just need to be that, simple ideas to vet with your reps.
                                Yes, sounds very good.

                                You just need a manager who's really communicative for this.
                                "Ecco il grande Zampano!"

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