My Black List Experience

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  • #31
    Re: My Black List Experience

    Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
    Script's that get an 8 also get rejected by production companies en masse. 95% of eights on the BL lead to nothing (that we know of). Laurie got a 9 (1/500 chance) and just got a face full of "Meh's" from the industry members who downloaded the script.
    I think if memory serves another reader on the Black List gave her a 3 at one stage for the same script and reviewed it like it was a comedy when it was actually a western? I may have that wrong because my memory ain't what it used to.............

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    • #32
      Re: My Black List Experience

      Originally posted by Centurio View Post
      That's not to say no bad scripts ever get sold. Someone's got to win the lottery.
      Very true. Ehren Krueger's making a living out of it as we speak. Seriously did anyone see Transformers: Age of Ex-stink-tion? That "film" has to have some of the worst dialogue I've ever heard and look at what that crap pile of a film grossed. OOOOO look! Explody robots! Booom KSssshh. Take my money!

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      • #33
        Re: My Black List Experience

        Originally posted by UnequalProductions View Post
        At some point, you need to stop blaming the readers and just take responsibility.

        You know what might have kept them from skimming and not catching all the details? Writing a great script. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth. Often when I'm reading a poor script, I just start to drift off. Things become muddled. Honestly, I just stop caring.
        Well, he's playing him to read the script, so he should, whether he's bored or not.
        It's the eye of the Tiger, it's the thrill of the fight

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        • #34
          Re: My Black List Experience

          Originally posted by Jules View Post
          Well, he's playing him to read the script, so he should, whether he's bored or not.
          I wish I could get away with this mentality at work.

          Boss: "This report you submitted is shi**ily executed!"

          Me: "But sir, the file was soooooo boooooring. I lost interest on page 6 and wasn't able to concentrate hard enough to fill out the report properly."

          Boss: "Fine. From now on, you only write reports on comic strips."
          I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

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          • #35
            Re: My Black List Experience

            Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
            I'd like to know how EXACTLY you make this determination. Is it too much description? Bad character intros? Bad dialogue?

            I'm guessing you've hated pro scripts before, so it can't be just typical amateur mistakes.
            Yeah. I've actually thought about that quite a bit, because it occurred to me that it'd be a really useful thread here on DDP. But it's hard for me to put my finger precisely on what it is.

            If I had to distill it down, I'd say it's two things:

            First, it's a sense that the story is moving forward right from the beginning. A sense that scenes matter. This is more than just an absence of slack, but it's a sense of something at stake. Often this something can be pretty small, but I'd say it's a tiny bit of urgency. I feel that even a relatively minor scene is pushing the script forward.

            The second is some sense of a unique point of view. To say that there's something surprising about the scene might make it sound like I need some sort of major misdirection, but that's not it. It's just something that keeps me on my toes. You know how a great chef can make you a meal that you've had a thousand times from different chefs and it's just better? You can't put your finger on what he's doing differently but somehow even a familiar dish catches your attention?

            It's not even that I have to love the flavor the script is offering. Rather, it's a sense of, "oh, hey, there's clear, distinctive set of spices here, it's not just a mush with the necessary nutrients."

            Pull a random comedic scene from "Bridesmaids," "Young Frankenstein," "Some Like it Hot" and "Wedding Crashers." Imagine that all the plot elements were irrelevant, but can you see how you couldn't put those scenes in the other movies just from a "flavor" standpoint? They wouldn't fit. This is true even if you restrict yourself to movies that are more similar from a genre standpoint: "Manhattan" and "When Harry Me Sally" are both romantic comedies featuring somewhat neurotic New York jews, and yet can you sense how the scenes in each film wouldn't work in the other movie, even ignoring issue of plot?

            Nor is this restricted to comedies. "Raiders of the Lost Ark" "Minority Report," and "Jurassic Park" are action films directed by the same guy - but even ignoring plot issues, do you get some an action scene in each of those films fundamentally just feels different and wouldn't work in the other films? Same director, same star, but notice how the opening scenes in "Ocean's 11" and "Out of Sight" are setting up very different movie worlds?

            The scenes have a specific (and often unique) flavor.

            These are all, obviously, examples of this sort of thing done at a master level. But when you read a script which is getting this even kind of right, you know right away that you're excited to keep reading. (And this is way more important that stuff like paragraph length and other "beginner" stuff).

            I'd encourage you to watch the opening sequence to some movies you love, and ask yourself: "What do I know about this movie, just from this sequence? What do I know about the character? And how do I know it?"

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            • #36
              Re: My Black List Experience

              Originally posted by Phoenixman78 View Post
              Very true. Ehren Krueger's making a living out of it as we speak. Seriously did anyone see Transformers: Age of Ex-stink-tion? That "film" has to have some of the worst dialogue I've ever heard and look at what that crap pile of a film grossed. OOOOO look! Explody robots! Booom KSssshh. Take my money!
              It's a little more complicated than that. I actually had the opportunity to talk with Ehren over dinner once about some of the challenges of that series, and let's just say that there are a lot of factors involved that aren't relevant to you writing specs.

              Avoid "crap plus one" thinking. Rather than say, "wow, that guy sucks, how is his stuff getting made? I can do better than that!" instead look at the stuff you love and try to match it. Your results will be much better.

              Originally posted by Jules View Post
              Well, he's playing him to read the script, so he should, whether he's bored or not.
              Sure. And this is why the Black List voids scores, gives new evals, etc. And, again, I strongly suspect that if it happens very often with a given reader, that reader gets fired.

              The fact that a writer should take responsibility for his own negative evaluations IN NO WAY absolves the reader from also being responsible for failing to read closely.

              Billy Ray said something once about things that go wrong on set: it's always his fault. He didn't make that bad thing impossible. Our goal as writers, the platonic ideal, is to make it impossible for a reader not to read closely. Anything else is, on some level, a failure on our part.

              How can I make that impossible? What can I do better?

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: My Black List Experience

                Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                It's a little more complicated than that. I actually had the opportunity to talk with Ehren over dinner once about some of the challenges of that series, and let's just say that there are a lot of factors involved that aren't relevant to you writing specs.

                Avoid "crap plus one" thinking. Rather than say, "wow, that guy sucks, how is his stuff getting made? I can do better than that!" instead look at the stuff you love and try to match it. Your results will be much better.
                I know that a lot more goes on behind the scenes that is completely out of a writers control. The story Kevin Smith tells regarding his time writing Superman and dealing with Jon Peters is hilarious and true.

                That being said, Ehran's written all but the first Transformers and the only one I've felt is slightly decent out of those was Dark of the Moon. He keeps accepting the cheques, that I wish were mine, and keeps writing them. Michael Bay has his "vision" and so does Paramount and I get that Ehran is a cog in a big machine but that don't change the fact those movies are bad.

                Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                Sure. And this is why the Black List voids scores, gives new evals, etc. And, again, I strongly suspect that if it happens very often with a given reader, that reader gets fired.
                Ol' Franklin has said in the DoneDealPro forums somewhere that he does fire them if it comes to that. He said that factual inaccuracies should be reported and that if they are proven they wipe the eval, give a new one and a free month of hosting.

                They obviously try to look after their customers which is great but I really hope that when I upload my comedy that I've been working on over Christmas break I don't have the same problems.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: My Black List Experience

                  Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                  Yeah. I've actually thought about that quite a bit, because it occurred to me that it'd be a really useful thread here on DDP. But it's hard for me to put my finger precisely on what it is.
                  After thinking about it, when reading in the Script Pages forum, I often find myself quick to judge too. After about 1/2 page I go "Oh, God. This is terrible." I think the last 20/25 script's I've read on there generated that reaction.

                  I think the main reason is that the scenes don't make me ask any questions. It's all laid out for me. Even the exposition-filled opening to Looper made me ask a ton of questions. For every answer there were two questions, which kept my interest.
                  I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: My Black List Experience

                    Originally posted by madworld View Post
                    Phoenix, I don't think this is the script that's going to get you there. I'd hate to see you waste more money or time, 18 months is it? It's time to crack a new one. You have to keep in mind that your scripts are evaluated the same way as everybody with that service. It's impossible for readers to catch everything, and even when you say it's 3 pages, it could be 3 pages of muddy stuff, when one line of clarity would have serviced you better.

                    Look it's tough. Brutally tough. It just is, even for produced/optioned/sold writers. They have to start new stuff all the time. I wish more people knew that. Most of the time people will say no. Trust me, the pressure you have when you get a rep eclipses anything before you get one. No one knows that until they're in it. Everyone thinking "well that ain't me" - it is. When the ball drops you will have to resurrect yourself again and again. [Being Phoenixman you should be able to do it.] But navigating the professional world takes a lot of skill, compromise, resourcefulness and perspective. Navigating the Blacklist is just a peek into this.

                    Readers will miss things. This is fact. In an ideal world, they wouldn't have the volume they have but they do. The volume affects them and it always will.

                    I wish you the best but I'm of the belief that it's time to start fresh. I hope I'm wrong but if you are getting 3's and 4's on the next evals, move on. We've ALL had to do it. Even the pros. You don't hear that often but every emperor in town has been naked and running for the locker room at one time or another.
                    I think that's the best advice, particularly the first two sentences. Just move on to your next screenplay. I wouldn't say the fact you can't score high on the BlackList is necessarily the end of this script, however. But at a certain point stop asking readers for their opinions and send it out (and let it sink or swim) and just move on to your next script.
                    Check out my videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/NyFilmmaker32/videos

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: My Black List Experience

                      Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                      I believe their policy is to take down the review when there is a factual error. They do not engage in the subjective discussion of the script. The reader got something wrong, it's done. The reader didn't, they don't.


                      But if you are consistently having people miss big stuff, I'd strongly encourage you to look for ways that you might be turning them off. How are you making them want to skim, rather than read closely?

                      As a fellow writer, I share your pain. I've been there. But ultimately, the responsibility is on us: we must make it as difficult as possible for a reader to skim a single word.

                      Good luck with the new evals.
                      In my experiences readers tend to tell you the things that overall put them off, so if you're having certain issues consistently you may wish to address them. I wouldn't just go by the readers comments. Think of similar films in the genre. How did they handle certain things? If read produced scripts or watch films it can help you more objectively assess your work and you'll be able to better see the readers comments.
                      Check out my videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/NyFilmmaker32/videos

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: My Black List Experience

                        I wonder who would the Interview have scored if it was posted on a site like the BlackList without the names of any of the involved people?

                        I think it would have scored poorly. Crude jokes, extremely offensive plotline and humor on multiple levels (so wrong). And this film was greenlit. Not only was it greenlit, due to the Sony hack drama it arguably changed the history (it has biggest film yet to be released almost directly to YouTube and the biggest in terms of sales yet on YouTube).

                        So perhaps it is wrong to spend so much time looking for a high score on BlackList. As a screenwriter you're an artist. There isn't a formula to determine what art work of yours will ultimately make it and what won't.

                        It's interesting, when I was at the New York Television Festival, the development executives from NBC, Fox, Comedy Central, etc thought pushback from the writer in terms of coverage was healthy. Granted these are writers who have secured network deals. But still, their attitude was coverage isn't a sacred text from god. Just as the writer can be wrong, the person writing the coverage can be wrong. This was in the context of a collaborative process (and it was television). They basically suggested it's healthy for writers to have faith in their work and to advocate for it.

                        I recently sent a short story out to some publishers. I got loads of rejections, and I forgot about the short story until 6 months later, a literary journal was interested in publishing my short story. One, or 15 people rejecting a story or a script doesn't mean that story or script will never go anywhere or that you should change it.
                        Check out my videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/NyFilmmaker32/videos

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: My Black List Experience

                          Originally posted by Phoenixman78 View Post
                          That being said, Ehran's written all but the first Transformers and the only one I've felt is slightly decent out of those was Dark of the Moon. He keeps accepting the cheques, that I wish were mine, and keeps writing them. Michael Bay has his "vision" and so does Paramount and I get that Ehran is a cog in a big machine but that don't change the fact those movies are bad.
                          It always makes me ambivalent when somebody seems to be encouraging someone else to turn down work. It's very easy to turn down hypothetical money - "I'd totally not take that job at that point" is really easy to say when nobody's offering you that job. When the next job might be your last (a reality for screenwriters) it's hard to turn down any paycheck.

                          Ehren has also written some stuff that's pretty good. Arlington Road, The Ring. Dude knows what he's doing.

                          And lastly, about the Transformers movies specifically. Two points:

                          I am not a fan. However, what is undeniable is that the films are extremely successful. So you and I might call then "bad" - but clearly they're working for a lot of people. You know how I wrote above that getting that one guy in the theater to love the movie might turn off someone else? It's entirely possible that getting you or me to love those films would turn off too many other people. e.g., Pacific Rim is a superficially similar movie that I liked much more, but clearly mainstream audiences didn't like it as much.

                          So you and I might say "those movies are terrible" but they clearly hit the target they were aiming for exactly. That's a significant accomplishment since clearly most people can't hit that target that consistently (if at all!). Just because we're not interested in that particular target doesn't mean we should demean the skills of the people who can hit it (especially since you or I haven't shown we could hit it if we wanted to).

                          Secondly, the most recent Transformers might be a lot smarter than you're giving it credit for being:

                          http://thebitterscriptreader.blogspo...n-is-most.html

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: My Black List Experience

                            Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                            Secondly, the most recent Transformers might be a lot smarter than you're giving it credit for being:

                            http://thebitterscriptreader.blogspo...n-is-most.html
                            I knew someone was going to reference BSR's opus at some point
                            "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: My Black List Experience

                              Originally posted by NYNEX View Post
                              I wonder who would the Interview have scored if it was posted on a site like the BlackList without the names of any of the involved people?

                              I think it would have scored poorly. Crude jokes, extremely offensive plotline and humor on multiple levels (so wrong). And this film was greenlit. Not only was it greenlit, due to the Sony hack drama it arguably changed the history (it has biggest film yet to be released almost directly to YouTube and the biggest in terms of sales yet on YouTube).

                              So perhaps it is wrong to spend so much time looking for a high score on BlackList. As a screenwriter you're an artist. There isn't a formula to determine what art work of yours will ultimately make it and what won't.

                              It's interesting, when I was at the New York Television Festival, the development executives from NBC, Fox, Comedy Central, etc thought pushback from the writer in terms of coverage was healthy. Granted these are writers who have secured network deals. But still, their attitude was coverage isn't a sacred text from god. Just as the writer can be wrong, the person writing the coverage can be wrong. This was in the context of a collaborative process (and it was television). They basically suggested it's healthy for writers to have faith in their work and to advocate for it.

                              I recently sent a short story out to some publishers. I got loads of rejections, and I forgot about the short story until 6 months later, a literary journal was interested in publishing my short story. One, or 15 people rejecting a story or a script doesn't mean that story or script will never go anywhere or that you should change it.
                              I suppose if you land the right script in the right persons hands anything is possible.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: My Black List Experience

                                Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                                It always makes me ambivalent when somebody seems to be encouraging someone else to turn down work. It's very easy to turn down hypothetical money - "I'd totally not take that job at that point" is really easy to say when nobody's offering you that job. When the next job might be your last (a reality for screenwriters) it's hard to turn down any paycheck.
                                Never said he should turn it down just that he makes a living writing bad movies.

                                Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                                Ehren has also written some stuff that's pretty good. Arlington Road, The Ring. Dude knows what he's doing.
                                Yep. Loved The Ring, never saw Arlington Road. Remind me, when were they released?

                                Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                                And lastly, about the Transformers movies specifically. Two points:
                                Whoa whoa whoa! Slowdown. Two points? Wait a minute. I'll just buckle my seatbelt..........right. Let's do this.

                                Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                                I am not a fan. However, what is undeniable is that the films are extremely successful. So you and I might call then "bad" - but clearly they're working for a lot of people. You know how I wrote above that getting that one guy in the theater to love the movie might turn off someone else? It's entirely possible that getting you or me to love those films would turn off too many other people. e.g., Pacific Rim is a superficially similar movie that I liked much more, but clearly mainstream audiences didn't like it as much.
                                I hate being the only one in the cinema who wants character depth, decent dialogue and a cohesive plotline. Oooo, look! Car went robot then go boom!

                                Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                                So you and I might say "those movies are terrible" but they clearly hit the target they were aiming for exactly. That's a significant accomplishment since clearly most people can't hit that target that consistently (if at all!). Just because we're not interested in that particular target doesn't mean we should demean the skills of the people who can hit it (especially since you or I haven't shown we could hit it if we wanted to).

                                Secondly, the most recent Transformers might be a lot smarter than you're giving it credit for being:

                                http://thebitterscriptreader.blogspo...n-is-most.html
                                Ha! I can't wait to see the bitter script readers take on Jason Friedberg and Aaron Seltzer's Meet The Spartans. Which by the way grossed $84 million on a $30 million budget.

                                Seriously though I get your point but in saying that I really hope that one day I'm known as an Aaron Sorkin and not as an Aaron Seltzer. I want to be a financial success and a critical success. Don't you?

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