Theme and Opposing conflict

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  • #46
    Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

    Originally posted by Mintclub View Post
    For me, theme is one of those elements that exists within the world and story you're creating. It can be a question posed by you the author, or an obstacle within the narrative or even a specific pov. Take a movie like Ghost. On the surface it's a supernatural dramedy anchored by a love story. Look a little deeper and you see that the theme is tied into the mindset of each of the key characters.

    Sam can't openly allow Molly into his heart fully hence him always using the word Ditto rather than I love you. Oda has a unique gift in that she can channel the spirit world but doesn't allow herself to fully embrace this. Molly struggles to believe that Sam still exists beyond the mortal world. By the end of the story they've all accepted these things. We see early on (when Sam and Molly move into their apartment) them knocking down a wall. That's (IMHO) the theme of the movie. To break down walls and let yourself be free, vulnerable. To let go.

    Not saying this is gospel, it's just my take.
    I have the same read of Ghost. I love that movie.

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    • #47
      Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

      My list of movies without a theme:







      End of list.

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      • #48
        Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

        Originally posted by Bono View Post
        My list of movies without a theme:







        End of list.
        Bono - It's a shame that you don't/can't support your claim with evidence. (It's also ironic, considering the often dialectic nature of a theme in a movie.) The definition of 'theme' may help you to understand why you're struggling with that.

        theme: an idea that recurs in or pervades [pervade: spread through and be perceived in every part of] a work of art or literature
        Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
        "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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        • #49
          Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

          Originally posted by Crayon View Post
          No, I genuinely do not know what you were referring to. If Alien [1979] has a "theme" (other than not getting killed by the Alien) then I'm blind to it. Please, if you just tell me its "theme" then I can look for the "thematic elements" myself.
          Alien isn't just about survival. It becomes about survival because the company DELIBERATELY sends the crew of the Nostromos to a distress signal on a distant planet, KNOWING it is a warning. Ash knows what their mission is before the ships wakes the crew. Ash represents the company. The entire series is built around greed and exploitation. And it all goes to shit.

          The science officer deliberately lets the Alien aboard EVEN THOUGH he knows it's against strict Company quarantine protocols. Why? Because the Company secretly orders him to do whatever it takes to bring the alien BACK. Even the Crew is expendable. The Company wants to use it as a bioweapon for profit.

          The theme of Alien is similar to the theme in Jurassic Park...

          "What happens when MAN tries to control a deadly, inherently evil species for profit?'

          Our hero's thematic question is:

          "Can Ripley, an everyman, rise up against an intelligent, deadly alien with acid for blood, and survive the assault?"

          The answer for Ripley is, "yes," but the answer for the other "would be" heroes is a resounding, "no."

          There are usually several themes in movies and stories. I didn't read the entire thread so if anyone said this already. Just move on.

          I agree with JL, theme grows out of conflict. They are tied together.
          Last edited by finalact4; 09-05-2020, 12:09 PM.
          "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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          • #50
            Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

            Originally posted by Crayon View Post
            You offered a "thematic question" (a hypothetical: what if the ultimate danger were to arise from an irresponsible quest for scientific[?] knowledge) and I ignored it because I don't accept that it's the theme of Alien because it's not explored in the screen-story.

            The actual danger in Alien firstly comes unbidden from a dutiful response to a distress call, and secondly from the antagonist Ash being an agent of corporate greed which regards individual lives as expendable. But even those two story elements aren't explored enough to constitute a theme for the movie.
            Yes, Neo. There is no theme in Alien.

            Yet you identify Ash (the android and "Science Officer") as the antagonist representing corporate greed. What was the object of their greed? Moon rocks? Or the Alien as a scientific specimen?

            It's Ash who wakes the Nostrono crew from hypersleep to investigate the distress call. Since you identify Ash as the antagonist, an agent of corporate greed, do you really believe this choice was a "dutiful response." Of course not, because we later find out the true mission of the Nostromo all along was to retrieve the Alien specimen.

            [Side note: Nostromo is the title of a novel by Joseph Conrad. Many consider it the best of Conrad's long fiction. Countless papers have been written about the story's theme: the evil that results in decisions made without a moral code. I guess naming the spacecraft Nostromo was a coincidence?]

            As soon as Kane is attacked by the facehugger on the abandoned spacecraft, Ripley refuses to let the team back onto the Nostromo. She cites the quarantine protocol (moral code). But it's Ash who lets them come aboard with the face hugger attached to Kane.

            When the facehugger falls off, Ash has his specimen -- which was the goal all along: achieving scientific advances at all costs. The crew was duped from the get go.

            Even when Ripley consults "Mother" -- the all-knowing AI -- on how to kill the Alien that had burst forth from Kane's chest, it did not provide an answer -- because it, like Ash, had been programmed to keep the Alien alive and bring it back at all costs.

            Then Ripley the discovers Special order 937:

            "Priority one — Ensure return of organism for analysis. All other considerations secondary. Crew expendable."

            Here's the film clip:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=-6mvwOCYJjc

            Protagonist/Ripley: her goal is to destroy the Alien before it's brought back to earth and threatens humankind.

            Antagonist Ash/Science Officer: his goal is to return the organism for scientific analysis at all costs.

            Yet, according to you:

            But even those two story elements aren't explored enough to constitute a theme for the movie.
            Really? Ash sabotages every effort to kill the Alien and even attacks Ripley. It drives every scene.

            This conflict goes directly to the original question posed by the OP.

            And you barge in claiming: Balderdash!

            There have always been contrarians on Done Deal. The link to the 2007 thread is another prime example: non-pros contradicting professional writers who actually earn their living writing screenplays.

            I usually find it mildly amusing. However, a discussion of theme is crucial to mastering the craft of screenwriting and your nay-saying for the sake of nay-saying is patently ridiculous.

            BTW: You have "Get Out" on your list of films for which you question theme exists. Are you serious -- "Get Out" has theme washing over every moment -- the original sin of the USA: Slavery.

            You missed that?
            Last edited by sc111; 09-05-2020, 11:56 AM.
            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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            • #51
              Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

              There's definitely a parlor game you can play where you argue for multiple different themes in existing films. Some of them may have been added consciously by the writer; some of them the writer may have added unconsciously because it's about questions that interest them; some are going to pop up because if you're writing an established genre, the themes are built into the conventions. (If you're making a film about a love triangle where you love the wrong person and miss the one that was there all the time, you're going to hit a lot of the same themes that the million other films like it hit.)

              But since this is a screenwriting forum, I think the more important point is how to use theme when you're writing. People may miss or misinterpret the theme you intended, but it's definitely a tool that can make your script more cohesive and interesting. A set piece that grows out of your theme is probably going to help define your characters more than one that's just random jokes/explosions.

              No one has to use theme when they're writing a script, obviously, but if I were trying to break in, I'd at least explore it to see if it helps. I find that coming up with an interesting thematic question at the same time I'm coming up with my logline is time well spent.

              An example: I sold a script about a James Bond type finding out he had a daughter from a mission years ago. (Almost got made a few times; not dead yet!)

              I certainly could have broken a movie from that, but I did a little digging. I found a great quote from Ian Fleming (original Bond writer) who talked about James Bond never falling in love because then he'd be carrying two hearts into battle - could he still make the right decision in the heat of the moment knowing that he wasn't just risking his life, he was risking ruining someone else's?

              That made a much more nuanced and interesting character to me - he's not just a spy who likes doing his job, he's someone who's making a conscious sacrifice of living a lonely life so that he can do his job. And it helped the daughter character - she's furious at this man for abandoning her and refusing to be a father - but then she can come to understand he does it at great cost.

              That thematic question - is it selfish for a person with a extremely dangerous job to love someone - doesn't have an easy answer, defined my characters and the growth of their relationship, and suggested set pieces. (For example, can he still do his job even if a decision might kill him or her? Early in the movie, the answer is different than at the end.)

              Did everyone reading the script understand the theme? Probably not, because I didn't have my characters ever explicitly say it. But what does that matter if it helped me make the script better?

              Again, I have friends who don't approach writing that way and do just fine. But I find it such a useful tool that I don't understand rejecting it out of hand - if you're willing to try The Super Secret Sequence Method, why not try seeing if consciously starting with an interesting thematic question helps?

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              • #52
                Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                Movies without a theme?

                Rear Window [1954] Theme is about marriage. Every relationship he "spies" is a variation of that theme. Including his own.
                Ben-Hur [1959]
                Psycho [1960] Theme is about mental health.
                Jason And The Argonauts [1963]
                Carry On Screaming! [1966]
                Where Eagles Dare [1968]
                2001: A Space Odyssey [1968] Theme is about evolution of man. Where will our next stage in evolution take man?
                The Texas Chain Saw Massacre [1974]
                Jaws [1975] How does a man terrified of water overcome his fear in order to save the people he's sworn to protect from a man eating shark?
                Monty Python And The Holy Grail [1975]
                Alien [1979] What happens when man believes he can control a deadly, inherently evil species for profit?
                The Shining [1980] I can't remember this film, but I'm certain it has themes regarding mental health.
                The Terminator [1984] If you know your future, can you change it? Remember the line? "The future is what we make."
                Die Hard [1988] Can a man set his pride aside and accept that his wife's job and happiness is as important as his own?
                Speed [1994] Can a young officer outsmart a motivated diabolical killer?
                Titanic [1997] Make every moment count. Live life to the fullest.
                28 Days Later [2002] Are two innocent lives worth saving in a pandemic?
                Night At The Museum [2006]
                The Cabin In The Woods [2011]
                Gravity [2013] Is one life worth saving?
                Bone Tomahawk [2015]
                The Revenant [2015]
                Darkest Hour [2017]
                Get Out [2017] Can we escape our past?
                every James Bond movie
                every Mission Impossible movie All MI films have themes.

                [Those movies are just the ones that happen to come to mind. I've not seen them all (and some not in a long while) so some may have a theme that I'm unaware of.]
                EVERY movie has themes. The all have messages. That's the point in telling stories. They examine what it means to be human.
                "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                • #53
                  Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                  Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                  T

                  Again, I have friends who don't approach writing that way and do just fine. But I find it such a useful tool that I don't understand rejecting it out of hand - if you're willing to try The Super Secret Sequence Method, why not try seeing if consciously starting with an interesting thematic question helps?
                  My snarky response: Because it requires additional effort.
                  Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                  • #54
                    Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                    My snarky response: Because it requires additional effort.
                    But it can save time and effort in the long run by helping you focus.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                      Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                      But it can save time and effort in the long run by helping you focus.
                      I agree completely. Yet it seems some prefer bouncing around from scene to scene aimlessly -- fingers crossed there's a subconscious theme in there, somewhere.
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

                        Did everyone reading the script understand the theme? Probably not, because I didn't have my characters ever explicitly say it. But what does that matter if it helped me make the script better?

                        Again, I have friends who don't approach writing that way and do just fine. But I find it such a useful tool that I don't understand rejecting it out of hand - if you're willing to try The Super Secret Sequence Method, why not try seeing if consciously starting with an interesting thematic question helps?
                        Good advice. Try new things and see if they work.

                        I never focused 100% on theme directly, but as I said before I think to myself: "What is this movie really about?" The heart of the story. But it's not top of mind, it's more revealing itself as I rewrite the pages.

                        But I like this idea of asking a question that the movie answers. Superman II comes to mind now that you mentioned your spy spec.

                        "Can a superhero afford to be selfish?" Answer -- "No, because as soon as he gets laid the world is taken over by 3 bad guys only Superman can stop."

                        I think a lot of my comedy ideas that I've written boil down to the "fear of growing up" which makes sense as the real writer (me) has the same issue.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                          Yet it seems some prefer bouncing around from scene to scene aimlessly -- fingers crossed there's a subconscious theme in there, somewhere.
                          Yes. On both points.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                            Originally posted by Bono View Post
                            I think a lot of my comedy ideas that I've written boil down to the "fear of growing up" which makes sense as the real writer (me) has the same issue.
                            The problem with themes like that, IMO, is that I don't know what they get you. It's basically a character trait. Your hero is afraid of growing up.

                            The more helpful themes, to me, are ones that you can argue both sides of. For example: "is it better that 99 guilty men go free than one innocent man goes to jail?" People have spent hundreds of years arguing that - and it's the debate at the heart of "Minority Report."

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                            • #59
                              Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                              The problem with themes like that, IMO, is that I don't know what they get you. It's basically a character trait. Your hero is afraid of growing up.

                              The more helpful themes, to me, are ones that you can argue both sides of. For example: "is it better that 99 guilty men go free than one innocent man goes to jail?" People have spent hundreds of years arguing that - and it's the debate at the heart of "Minority Report."
                              Might explain why I'm an unsold writer. Honestly, I'm sure each script has more than that going on, but that's first big idea that came to me.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                                I'm not saying theme is the key to the castle or that you're doing anything wrong. Just hopefully pointing out something interesting to try.

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