Questions to ponder about why you're doing this...

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  • #16
    Salazkin -

    Cool.

    To further clarify, I'm not talking about/to someone who asks: "How do you approach expressing theme via visual motifs that are organic to your story and characters?"

    I'm talking more about questions like: "The theme of my script is a variation on 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'. Is this too negative for a spec script? Can I get away with it or should I put a more positive spin on my story?", to which I would always answer, "Hey, it's your spec. Why are you writing it? Answer that and you have your answer."

    But it appears as if some think that this is not a satisfactory answer. Like they want to be told what to write about and how (and even why). It's just weird to me.

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    • #17
      I can't answer for anyone else, I can only answer for me. Here's my take on it.

      A long time ago when I was a struggling novelist I was told that my ideas were more visual and suited to the screen. Quite honestly the idea scared me to death. I didn't know if I could handle it, or was up to the task. I have had self esteem issues that suggested that I could never write that next multimillion dollar movie, so why try? I was coming from an all or nothing place.

      Fast forward to me deciding it was time for me to just feel the fear and do it anyway, and I write my first script. I was new, and the only thing I knew is that I filled up about 110 pages worth of story. I had only read one book to tell me how to do it and my first few readers (friends and family, God love em) all told me it was great. I found DD in my search for an agent (cuz, you know, that first script was gold), and that's when I learned I didn't know half as much as I thought I did.

      I scoured these boards and found out this screenwriting business was a lot more complicated than I suspected. It hit me right in my confidence, so, with my self esteem shaken, I wanted someone, anyone to validate I hadn't wasted my time. Am I doing this right? Did I do good? Are my ideas valid? I'm not a total screwup, right?

      This board is filled with new writers who had no classroom to teach them how to do this, they just jumped in blind and did it. And sadly this board is full of contradictory information. The first tool people use in learning how to write a script is reading produced scripts, but other struggling screenwriters tell them that you can't write like that. There are special rules for the newbie writer and his virgin spec. Style is constantly being mistaken for rules, and it's no wonder that we've slapped down new writers so much that they are asking us the creative questions you refer to in your post. They're looking for someone to say, "It's okay for you to trust your instincts."

      Maybe all writers need to go through this growth phase where they learn what they can and can't do, what works and what doesn't, based on trial and error. Maybe they have to forge through and "break the rules" only to learn that some "rules" are there for a reason. Call it screenwriting puberty.

      If you're meant to do this, if it's in your blood like an incurable disease, you'll find your way. I finally got to a point where I can get a consider on a first draft written in 7 days, just trusting in myself and my ability. I still ask questions, I still bounce my insecurities against the wall to see if they stick. I think we all do - writers always seek the approval for their babies and validation for their ideas. That's just the nature of the beast.

      And so are the growth questions like the ones you mentioned in your post. Just comes with the territory as we grow as artists.

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      • #18
        Maybe all writers need to go through this growth phase where they learn what they can and can't do, what works and what doesn't, based on trial and error. Maybe they have to forge through and "break the rules" only to learn that some "rules" are there for a reason. Call it screenwriting puberty.
        I definitely think this is something that all beginning writers need to go through -- and will -- if they are serious about improving their craft.

        However, like you said, a lot of these writers don't have any resources outside the internet/internet message boards to help them, so this is their only "school of hard knocks" or "baptism by fire" as it were.

        And while many new writers may fool themselves into thinking this (message boards) are enough... It really isn't.

        I say this not as a put-down, flame or statement of arrogance.

        I thought this exact same thing when I was starting out. The exact same thing.

        It wasn't until I had an actual, real-life mentor who showed me how much I DIDN'T know about the craft of screenwriting and who also, more importantly, was willing to work with me because HE saw the potential in that first script I wrote... Which says something in itself because as we know, most of our first works are TERRIBLE... But he saw the "spark", "light" or whatever you want to call it and decided to help me and see where it went because like most writers, he has a love and PASSION for the art of writing (screenwriting) in general.

        I think writers need real life mentors whom they can specifically ask questions and advice to on a more intimate, one-on-one level where they aren't trying to filter out all the competing and conflicting information (that is often wrong) that you see on various message boards and "how-to" books.

        Not necessarily formally trained (screen)writing teachers or professors, but just experienced, credible writers who are willing to share their advice and experience.

        Again, I also realize that depending on a new writer's particular set of circumstances (geography; income level; resources available) that what I just said ISN'T a realistic option...

        But I think this IS a vital step in the learning process and that is being able to communicate -- in person -- With another writer, preferably, a more experienced writer who doesn't have any vested interest in the newbie (other than helping them) and who will tell them where they are strong and where they are weak and give them honest, non-conflicting feedback that will truly HELP them improve their craft if they are willing to put in the time and learn it.

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        • #19
          If you have to ask permission, the answer is NO.

          Can my character?-NO
          Can the protag?-NO
          Does it have to?-NO
          Can a writer?-NO
          NO! NO! NO!

          Now do you still want to do this, or do it your own way?

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          • #20
            Ah, this thread takes me back to college when, as a creative writing major, I was required to take Poetry Workshop I & II.

            I entered PW-I writing l-o-n-g free verse poetry. Professor said, "Write shorter poems!" So I distilled my poetry to the barest of bare verse and all was well, until . . .

            the next semester, in PW-II. I enter calss, confident in my short-poem writing skills after the last semester. Confident that my last Professor was right, short poems were the only way to go.

            But when the Professor of PW-II takes a look at my work, he wrinkles his nose and barks, "Write longer poems! Poems that go on for pages and pages."

            Hmmm. I had a hunch and followed it all the way to the college library where I pulled the pubished poetry of both these teachers.

            No surprise - - the first one write short poems, the second one wrote long poems, so the moral of the story is that the subtext of most critics comments is: "Don't write like you!
            Write like me! "

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            • #21
              Your subsequent replies make it clear I misread the intent.
              So did his very first post.

              I understood Tony's point from the start and saw no reason for anyone to be offended. I think his questions are valid.

              People who ask total strangers "Can I write this?" or "Is it okay to do this?" or "Should I write X or Y?" -- well, they just don't seem to have the nerve or conviction a writer needs to even complete a decent story, let alone make a career out of it.

              If you don't have a story you're so driven to tell that you don't care about anybody's opinions of whether or not you should do it, then why are you writing at all? And if you're not sufficiently confident in your story and your ability to tell it that you don't care if some stranger says "that's just not done," how can you expect it to impress somebody who reads hundreds or thousands of scripts a year?

              If you find yourself tempted to ask relative strangers a question as huge and basic as "Can I do this?" or "Should I write X or Y?" -- even if the real reason you're asking is simply that you need the validation of seeing someone say it's okay -- I think you should stop and ask an even bigger question of yourself: "Should I even be trying to write?"

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              • #22
                What Refried said

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                • #23
                  Nerves can be grown.

                  Trust me, I know.

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                  • #24
                    No one is born knowing how to do anything.

                    We learn through trial and error, as well as asking questions of those who might know the answers.

                    It's all part of the learning curve.

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                    • #25
                      I think you're missing the point, Wolf. I'm not sure how you could miss it, since I believe it was very clear in Tony's first post, and he made it even clearer in subsequent posts. But we're not talking about people who say "how do I do this?"

                      Of course that's valid and part of the learning process. We're talking about people who say "Is it okay if I tell this kind of story?" or "Should I tell X type of story, or Y type of story?"

                      Completely different.

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                      • #26
                        I didn't miss the point. Perhaps I'm more forgiving than you.

                        There is no such thing as a dumb question the first time you ask it.

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                        • #27
                          wow, i really disagree with that.

                          some questions are just a whole lotta dumb, and some people are just a whole stack of stupid. everyone is not created equal, and that's life.

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                          • #28
                            Addressing Tony's questions â€"

                            I write screenplays because it is the only way to combine all the things that I have been over the course of my life in one creative pursuit: writer, painter, musician, film crew and critic. Not other medium incorporates so much variety in such a succint package. Frankly, that's all that matters. I'm less interested in making a career out of it than I am in enjoying the process.

                            As far as why people look for validation of their ideas, I think that's been covered. In fact, I had brought up the same thing in a long-ago post that has since dropped off the boards. The sum of that post was that most of the "stupid" questions that people ask on writing message boards (and that extends to all of them, really) are there because it's far easier to talk about number of brads or weight of paper than it is to really talk about the meat of screenwriting: plot, character, tone and emotional connection. We could talk around and around the Important Questions for years on end and still never get anywhere. Many people know that in advance and so don't even bring them up.

                            My 2¢.

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                            • #29
                              I wouldn't necessarily call the questions in this case "dumb" (and again, I'm specifically referring to questions where the poster is asking for permission to write a certain type of story with a certain spin). I would just say that the person asking said questions needs to take a look at WHY they're asking them. Perhaps validation really IS the reason the majority of the time. Or, perhaps, Geevie is also right, and most times it's a case of too much conflicting information and advice on the internet. Hell, a lot of conflicting advice comes from the pros - try reading some of Martell's or Deus' posts about what types of things you should be writing and then flip to some of Taotropics' posts about the same subject, right after. If you're a new screenwriter and not already secure in your own writing, I have a feeling your head will explode. Who to trust? Who's the "better" pro? Whose career path would you most want to follow? It's really crazy.


                              This is one reason I think it's a mistake for a new screenwriter to look to an internet message board to teach him/her how to write screenplays. But what's the alternative when you're out in the middle of nowhere? I don't know. If your writing shows promise and you have some talent, you could try querying working screenwriters whose stuff you admire and ask if they'd like to mentor you. I don't know.

                              What I do know is you've got to trust the types of things you want to write; the types of things you want to see as movies with your name on them, someday; the way you want to approach telling the story (flashback structure, for instance) if you think that's the best way to tell the story; the themes you want to explore; the characters you want to bring to life, etc., etc.

                              If you love movies and you love writing, you have to trust that.

                              Or, at least, I do.

                              JMO.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Validation

                                -----------------------------------------------------------
                                the quest for validation runs through the bloodstream of human nature, and manifests in different ways in different endeavors. in no other vocation, however, must one be as keenly aware of consensus while at the same time mentally and morally prepared to reject it, as in the arts.
                                ------------------------------------------------------------

                                A nice quote from William Haskins

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