Question for the pro screenwriters and industry pros

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  • #61
    Still going stong

    Not being a pro yet, I am going to stay silent but for another round of thanks. Lots of good stuff in this thread. Sounds like just about everyone is in agreement but for the semantics. Seem to me that it all boils down to a "simple" task - As an unknown writer seeking to break in you must not only write what you are passionate about, but do it well and with an audience beyond yourself in mind.

    Jason

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    • #62
      Re: Still going stong

      Two more "characteristics" of pros worth mentioning:

      - If something can be said in three words or four, they choose three.
      - Pros avoid redundancy.

      Edited because I forgot two. Sorry.

      - Pros make effective use of subtext.
      - Pros avoid redundancy.

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      • #63
        Re: Still going stong

        meat, I agree with you in principle but in practice, if the audience buys tickets to a movie they have decided it's good even if I don't agree. If millions of people decide to buy food at Burger King, they decided it's good and to them it is, even if I don't think it is. HW is not about making "good" stories in the sense that you are using the word to mean. HW is a business that wants to sell it's product to the most consumers it can to make the biggest profit it can. A story that attracts a huge audience and makes a ton of money is by HW standards a good movie.

        But to get back to Henry James, he wasn't talking about HW but he was talking about the individual reader. If the reader likes what they read, then it is deemed to be a good story and if they don't like what they read they will deem it to be a bad story regardless of what academics or critics or the writer thinks. If a writer writes a good story that no one else thinks is good -- does that mean it's still good?

        There are many stories floating around HW but they are not "good" until a reader deems them to be good.

        If a story falls in the forest and no one reads it -- is it good?

        Obviously you have to write what you think is good. I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm saying you should also write something someone else will think is good and newbie writers are not always the best judge of what is and isn't good, as evidenced by the mountain of crappy scripts newbies crank out every year each one proclaiming their space-vampire-hitman script to be the greatest thing to happen to film since the invention sound.

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        • #64
          Re: Pros were amateurs too!

          This is truly a great thread and I think it will help a lot of aspiring writers (including me) to improve their craft and hopefully, become pros one day. I only want to say that all pros started as aspiring screenwriters and that theyâ€TMve learned their craft through writing lousy scripts. No matter how many books you read, how many classes you take or how many advices you receive on boards like this, still youâ€TMll have to write your share of bad scripts in the world.

          Itâ€TMs the best and perhaps the only way to learn.

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          • #65
            Re: Still going stong

            great thread.

            another question. say you've written a couple think stories, pretty strong, not high concept. and can't get read. so you try to write a high concept script. now the problem is this isn't your passion, this is what might sell.

            doesn't that come through in the writing? isn't it a catch-22 to try to write with passion but not at what you're passionate about because it's not high concept?

            i agree with tao completely, i have to write what i know or love or research enough to know i love writing about it.

            but so far not exactly high concept stuff. and the spec market demands high concept. all of you basically agree that unless the writing demands attention look at me look at me stuff, the script is tossed.

            so do i write high concept to break in? and give it my best shot, use the passion pieces as something else? because that's kind of at odds with how tao broke in. he did the passion first, then was known for his passionate writing.

            thanks for this thread. it's helped a lot, and thanks tr for starting something.

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            • #66
              Re: Still going stong

              You need both. It's not one or the other. It's BOTH.

              Find a commercial concept you feel passion for.


              If you can't find passion for a commercial concept, you may want to reconsider if screenplay writing is right for you. Many of these so called "passion stories" are actually novels pretending to be scripts. In most cases these "passion stories" get made when they are based on successful material like a play or novel.

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              • #67
                Re: Still going stong

                "doesn't that come through in the writing? isn't it a catch-22 to try to write with passion but not at what you're passionate about because it's not high concept?"

                Ya gotta fall in love with the hooker.

                Comment


                • #68
                  pros

                  Development executives have a term for a writer that panders to the marketplace and chases trends: they call them "spec monkeys".

                  Why spec monkeys? Because these writers are like circus animals who will jump through hoops in a desperate desire to please the "marketplace". They talk about wanting to "sell". They talk about "high concepts". Development execs never consider these writers for assignment work. Because these writers are not really writers - they are in the Concept Lottery - very rarely they win, mostly they lose - because the next "high concept" always appears in at least fifty scripts at once. Once two or three of the projects have been bought - usually for not much money, since spec monkeys don't write very well and the studio factors in the cost of rewriting them - the rest go PERMANENTLY unsold. Since the scripts were chasing a trend, they are now worthless. They have no shelf life. You wasted your time.

                  Again - I will say from experience that none of the professional writers I know chases the marketplace. They are smart enough to know that from a personal/creative perspective, trend chasing is boring and short-sighted; and from a financial perspective, focussing on the topics and areas that they are naturally interested in creates work that bring the market to IT as opposed to the other way around. It also affords them the opportunity to showcase real writing skill that will get them noticed and hired for assignment work.

                  What I'm advocating is: instead of begging for crumbs, ask for the whole pie.

                  Don't be a spec monkey, be a writer. Writers write to communicate with an audience, to "infect them" (as tolstoy put it) with the writer's passion. They write with integrity and passion in the genre they are most comfortable in. They know the golden rule: IF IT DOESN'T DELIGHT AND EXCITE ME, IT WON'T DELIGHT AND EXCITE ANYONE ELSE.

                  Am i advocating writing all family dramas? of course not. The matrix, Sixth Sense, die hard were all inspired individual creations. i advise writers to stay in the genre they were born to. Eveyone has a genre that is their "home base", the place they feel most excited and most comfortable. Especially when starting out, I strongly advise against writing in multiple genres. I always wince when a newcomer says "I wrote five scripts this year, a western, a horror, a sci-fi, a cop movie and a comedy! I'm versatile." That simply tells me you haven't found your voice and you don't know how to rewrite because you don't spend enough time on your scripts. It also tells me you probably didn't do more than cursory research on any of them. Writing in multiple genres as a newcomer is like trying to learn to play five different instruments at the same time. You won't be making pretty sounds on any of them any time soon.

                  And by the way, when Matrix was sold, it was NOT a "commercial" concept AT ALL. Studios had just finished a run of computer movies like "Virtuosity" and "The Net" that had tanked and the trend was already played out. The Matrix was set up because of the talent of the directors. If the Wachowskis had listened to Deus at the time, Deus would have (presumably, according to the line of argument) advised them to pick something else to work on because futuristic computer movies were out of fashion then. good thing they didn't listen to the trend-chasers.

                  By the way, instead of shilling my own story, let me shill another story. I have two acquaintances who, after watching my brother make a spec sale, LITERALLY imitated the concept a year later and cranked out a B-grade version of my brother's script. the trend was not quite dead. It went out and actually sold for a decent amount of money. These friends then declared themselves hollywood big shots, bought range rovers, moved into a bigger house, happily lived off the money, and waited for the opportunities and offers to come rolling in. After all - they were now Sold Writers with a Big 5 Agent. they framed their Variety article and sat next to the phone waiting for the agent to call with the next job. They also got to work on their next spec.

                  but the phone didn't ring. See, no one wanted to hire them because their work was clearly B-rate and derivative. they were spec monkeys. but that's okay! they can just write another spec! they had a meeting with their agent where they presented a buffet of ideas to the agent and let the agent pick which one they should write. After all, the agents know the marketplace better than anyone, right? they are sure to know what will sell! the agent enthusiastically signed off on one of the ideas and off they went to write.

                  they finished the spec. the agent sent it out. but the timing was slightly off this time. everyone passed. oh well.

                  they wrote another spec, their money now rapidly dwindling. this one HAD to sell. But it didn't.

                  and then, the truly sad sight: the agent dropped them, they had to downsize, go back to their day jobs and write on the side. haven't been heard from since. they had not taken the time to become writers before they became trend chasers, and so they endured the exquisite agony (which i would not wish on any of you) of having a false success, turning their lives upside down, announcing to their family and friends they were now hollwyood writers, only to discover they were doctors who'd never been to medical school. they felt like frauds and they were. they had no skills to offer. they were not craftsmen. and if you think not selling hurts? try selling one and then never selling another. that is a world of pain.

                  more later

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                  • #69
                    Re: Thanks, tao

                    Writing for the long haul, in a nutshell.

                    Thanks, Tao. I was increased by that.

                    -ros

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                    • #70
                      Re: Thanks, tao

                      Just wanted to say, again, thank you to everyone who's contributed to this thread and made it, in my opinion, one of the greats.

                      There's a helluva lot of excellent food for thought here.

                      Carry on.

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                      • #71
                        Et Tao, Brute?

                        Hereâ€TMs the deal, no one should expect to make a living
                        as a spec screenwriter. Them days are done. An
                        aspiring writer shouldnâ€TMt expect to sell more than
                        one or two specs at most. Screenwriters feed on the
                        teat of assignments.

                        Yes, specs are for kids, silly rabbit.

                        Perhaps aspiring writers working in Hollywood as PAs
                        and office assistants etc. are writing specs chasing
                        the market, but Iâ€TMd bet most would-be screenwriters
                        around the globe have only a foggy notion of what is
                        sparking the commercial spec script market at any
                        given time. These newbies are writing material with
                        unfettered fervor when considering the whims
                        of potential buyers they've never met.

                        Browse the loglines section. Whoâ€TMs chasing the market?
                        98 percent of the logs bear little resemblance to any
                        recently sold specs. If the log lines posted for
                        first aid here on Done Deal are indicative of the
                        majority of scripts scribbled by the aspiring writers
                        who frequent this site, we are only preaching to the
                        choir with the promotion of writing with self-
                        indulgence as your muse. This ideal is evidently
                        the status quo.

                        That said, self-indulgence is actually a good
                        motivation. Deus and others are advising pre-pros
                        to be savvy in how they exploit it. Selecting
                        compelling ideas and unique but generic premises is
                        a writerâ€TMs number one responsibility since it can be
                        taken for granted their execution will be self-indulgent
                        -- itâ€TMs an imperative since this is where writers
                        express their passion.

                        Considering Taoâ€TMs anecdote about his brotherâ€TMs
                        starry-eyed comrades (they bought Range Rovers after
                        one sale?), those guys should know that sold writers
                        failing to sell follow up scripts after a spec sale
                        is the norm. Getting out of the business after the
                        misfires is silly. I used to monitor tracking boards,
                        Iâ€TMve seen big shot scribes take big swats with specs
                        and strike out. The smart ones go on to assignments
                        or the next script. If a sold writer canâ€TMt get an
                        assignment after selling an original, they should
                        consider firing their agent. Strong consider.

                        Writers dishing out good samples (but unsold scripts)
                        used to solicit meetings are in for a challenge as
                        the competition for assignments continues to tighten.
                        So writers need to be more savvy about coming up
                        with specs featuring cheap to produce, novel premises
                        weighted with the gravitas of verisimilitude and
                        universal themes. Self-indulgent writing is good but
                        without a clever why-hasnâ€-t-someone-done-this-before
                        take on a familiar idea, itâ€TMs usually not enough
                        unless youâ€TMre writing an indie that is a shoo-in to
                        win a major script contest. The successful screenwriters
                        who, within the last year, initiated their careers with
                        major contest victories pale in comparison to the
                        numbers who have conjured clever concepts written
                        with such chemistry they arouse its readers' honest
                        hopes and most dreaded fears. Although the road kill
                        on the spec writerâ€TMs journey has a 98 percent
                        mortality rate, itâ€TMs still the best avenue to take for
                        the aspiring screenwriter.

                        Rx

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Commercial Concepts

                          When I suggest people try to find a commercial concept they are passionate about I am not advocating writing an imitation of any film, success or flop, or chasing any trend or writing a piece in a genre you have no understanding for or a story you have no passion for. Why is it so many people equate the idea or trying to write a commercial concept with the above?

                          Without a doubt there will always be projects that do not seem very commercial and get made. But I would hazard that these are the exceptions and not the rule. Getting work or even a sale from a spec is the exception and not the rule. I am merely advocating that a spec writer not hitch their wagon to the exception of the exception.

                          I am advocating writing with passion and originality and inspiration and with such invention and cleverness and unexpectedness (is that a word?) that the story is exceptionally compelling to create and experience. I am also advocating that this story also be accessible and appealing and intriguing to the widest audience possible. This is what I mean when I say a writer should strive for a marketable story or commercial concept.

                          I'm not sure why this is such an affront to so many writers on this board. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this issue and wish each other the very best of luck with our different approaches to the same goal.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Commercial Concepts

                            What Deus said.

                            To completely ignore audience is to ignore the basic nature of writing for the screen. It is popular entertainment, afterall. I would think audience has to be one of many considerations.

                            Jason

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                            • #74
                              Re: Commercial Concepts

                              I don't know if anyone has noticed this yet, but Tao and Deus really aren't all that much at odds. Tao says "follow your heart." Deus says "following your heart down the wrong path doesn't help very much." This isn't a matter of opposing viewpoints â€" it's a matter of complementary advice. It's also a sure sign why there are so many unsuccessful screenwriters and so few successful ones.

                              We've all got stories that we're passionate about. I would love to tell the story of the young Cathlic boy who hooks up with the bartender's daughter and the trouble that gets him into. But I can't imagine anyone but me and maybe my mom would want to pay money for that. Tao might say "write it anyway" and I just might. But not with the expecation that it will be my entrée into the hallowed halls of Professionalism.

                              Successful writers are those few who are passionate about ideas that other people can care about as well. We all know that. But take a hard look at your scripts and see who else but you and your mom want to see them. That's the real telling, no?

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                              • #75
                                what producers see

                                I guess part of this just depends on what you see as the bigger risk for newcomers.

                                I have read scores and scores of newcomer scripts, and the main problem I see is not "self-indulgence" but derivation. The get-rich-quick/write-what-they-want/cliche-of-the-week syndrome is a far larger problem than the problem of the newcomer writing a script that's "too personal". All I see are scripts that are ninth-generation xerox copies of genre films popular in the mid-eighties. They are dead out of the gate.

                                I am not opposed to intriguing premises, or opposed to finding myself writing a story with the likelihood of appealing to a mass audience. Obviously that would be wonderful. I'm sure the Coens were pleasantly surprised when they saw Fargo raking in the money and awards. The difference is - I start out looking for a premise that intrigues ME - not the invisible development executive over my shoulder. And I come out on the other side with development execs saying "I never would have thought of doing it that way". Remember guys - we're the creative ones, not them. Please don't make the mistake of thinking these people know something you don't about movies or movies that sell or anything else for that matter. The ball is in your court.

                                Any pro will tell you that you must selectively ignore the notes of a development executive, because if you faithfully carry out their notes, you will produce something that is idiotic. Why? Because THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT. Your job as the writer is to diagnose the patient based on the pain they complain about. So if the exec says "pages 70-80 dragged for me" that is a problem you have to fix. But don't trust the exec to tell you how to fix it. That's your job. In the same way - don't trust a genre seminar, or a screenwriting book, or a producer or a schmuck on a screenwriting board to tell you what will or won't sell. What "appeals to a mass audience" is completely and utterly subjective. YOU are the first and most vital audience for your movie. If it moves you, or intrigues you - then it DOESN'T MATTER what the content is.

                                The key is in the way you phrase it. Originality is so rare and so unlikely that I'm far more worried about someone killing an original idea in its cradle for fear that its not "commercial" than I am about someone writing something too self-referential. If it's self-referential, at least the writer is operating in a universe they know.

                                Stiggs - if your advice to a sold writer that isn't getting follow up work is to fire their agent, what if they have no one to jump to because their work sucks? Further, I'm not sure what to you qualifies as "breaking in", but as far as I'm concerned you don't have a career as a writer until someone would consider hiring you for your skill. Stumbling into a single sale happens all the time. The question is how do you create a career? I would offer that the movie about the "young catholic boy that hooks up with the bartender's daughter" is just as likely if not more likely to create a sample that gets someone assignment work (which is, lets remember, financially more viable and long term than selliing a spec) than a movie about a guy who has ten days to go back in time to prevent his girlfriend from getting married. What I hear from my producer friends, who are two-handers (meaning producers that have in their repertoire enormously successful films that were also very well received critically/awards etc.) is that they want to hire writers in possession of a distinctive and original voice - NOT writers that spit out high concepts.

                                If a writer is too "concept-reliant" in their work they are in danger of being considered a spec monkey. A high concept premise by definition makes character, dialogue and the other tools that showcase writing skills less important to the overall evaluation of the script. Without those skills on display, you are only as good as your high concept. And the overwhelming odds are that thirty people are peddling that same high concept at the same time as you - and they're probably better connected than you are. High concepts come and go with the tide. Good writing buys pied a terre's in New York and ranches in Wyoming.

                                So pconsidine, if you want a career instead of just a sale, and if the story you described burns inside you hotter than the other things you're working on, I'd advise you to get cracking on your coming of age script.

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