Plot Point 2

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Re: Plot Point 2

    Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
    The tools you are presenting are crude at best. Not invalid, just crude.
    Which tools do you recommend?

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Plot Point 2

      Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
      Biohazard:
      There's nothing wrong with approaching art with a scientist's eye, but there's a difference between tools valuable to the analysis of writing, and tools valuable to the creation of writing
      That's all.
      Craig summed up my criticism of screenwriting teachers and books, right there. The process of analysis is just different than the process of creating. A screenwriting guru may find some general truth or insight and because they've unearthed this, they think that by imparting it, they're aiding writers by giving them shortcuts to create. But I think it can hurt them. Generally speaking. Because, once you accept what another person says as true - independent of how true or false it is - and independent of how you feel about it - at that point you are saying "I cannot trust my own process, there are smarter people who know more than me - I will listen to them and create from their knowledge rather than my own." That's a very limiting place to be.

      I think there are great writers who aren't necessarily privy to all the mechanics of their process because they work very intuitively. Developing and trusting one's intuition isn't something you can teach. And because you can't make any money telling an amateur that, you don't hear it from screenwriting teachers.

      People like Scott Frank, Zallian, Monahan, Eric Roth -- all of them are experts at their craft and I bet all of them work intuitively. And I bet none think much about "plot point 2." Not saying it's wrong to think about plot-point 2, but I am in the sense that, if you believe that plot point 2 should always be present at a certain place at a certain time, then you've just cut off a variety of possibilities that may be better for your story.

      Also, the thing that irks me is - there's this idea that good structure is somehow independent of good storytelling, which is why I think all structural paradigms are a crock of sh!t. Fincher's DRAGON TATTOO did not have a three act structure. It probably had closer to four or five acts, the first one lasting like 50 minutes.

      BTW, I'm not giving advice, I'm just rendering a judgment.
      Last edited by omovie; 01-12-2012, 12:47 PM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Plot Point 2

        Most Hollywood movies do follow a certain storytelling template, either by deliberate design, intuition, or by accident.

        And there are also certain story "beats" (or plot points) that industry ppl watch out for. When some beats are missing, or aren't handled well, you can tell... even if you can't quite put into words what's "off" about the story.

        I'm not an expert, but here are the beats I've noticed appear again & again in HW movies. I don't use "Catalyst" or "Inciting Incident" b/c I find them hard to remember. Some of the titles I use for the beats here are self-explanatory.

        ---------------

        Intro to Protagonist:

        Intro to Problem: A big, life-changing problem is introduced.

        Intro to Antagonist:

        Call to Action: When the protag decides (or is forced) to pursue his/her goal or solve the problem.

        Midpoint: Some ppl use the term "Point of no return". It's when some big reversal occurs at the halfway point in the story/movie.

        All is Lost: The protag encounters a difficult obstacle and appears defeated. Emotional low point.

        Courage Regained: After the apparent defeat, the protagonist rallies and finds the courage to continue with his/her goal.

        Final Showdown: There is a final showdown btwn the protag and the antagonist, with the protagonist (the majority of the time in a HW movie) emerging triumphant.

        Denouement: Shows the aftermath of the hero's victory.

        -------------------

        Again, you don't have to know the exact terminology (tho it's helpful in discussing screen stories), or assign pg numbers to the beats, or use a guide when writing... no one is holding a gun to your head... this is just a general template I see in movies.

        And there are other beats like The Debate which I didn't list here b/c a number of movies don't have that beat... & some don't have a real denouement... so this stuff is somewhat fluid. Every movie is a little different, but most all HW movies will have the beats I list here.

        "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

        ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Plot Point 2

          Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
          Which tools do you recommend?
          Try thinking about stories in terms of the protagonist's relationship to the theme or central dramatic argument of the script.

          Take the emphasis off of plot.

          But note: this is nothing more than a tool. It's not a method or a solution. Just a way of thinking about your story. There is no quantitative or formulaic substitute for inspiration.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Plot Point 2

            Stvnlra:

            You're right. Those elements almost always emerge.

            But why? That's the question you must answer for yourself and the script you're writing.

            "Because they're supposed to" is a bad answer for the writer.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Plot Point 2

              Mazin is a walking inciting incident. And I mean that as a compliment.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Plot Point 2

                Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                Try thinking about stories in terms of the protagonist's relationship to the theme or central dramatic argument of the script.

                Take the emphasis off of plot.
                This seems like an even more crude method.

                The plot must be thought of in terms of theme and the central dramatic argument of the story, not independently, and certainly not at all.

                The best cinematic stories have every part working in conjunction with the others, not in opposition, and the best way to achieve this synchronicity is to build the script off of a solid structural framework.

                It's not the only way, of course, but certainly one that works, and works very well.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Plot Point 2

                  Jesus Christ. It seems to me more people know how to talk about a story than how to tell one.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Plot Point 2

                    Originally posted by DirtyDays View Post
                    Jesus Christ. It seems to me more people know how to talk about a story than how to tell one.
                    I think you meant to say: more people talk about how to write a good story than know how to write a good story.

                    But that's obvious, because good stories well told are relatively rare, and I think we are all searching for the secret or reciepe to writing such stories.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Plot Point 2

                      I am so confused by all of this...

                      - Bill
                      Free Script Tips:
                      http://www.scriptsecrets.net

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Plot Point 2

                        Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                        This seems like an even more crude method.

                        The plot must be thought of in terms of theme and the central dramatic argument of the story, not independently, and certainly not at all.

                        The best cinematic stories have every part working in conjunction with the others, not in opposition, and the best way to achieve this synchronicity is to build the script off of a solid structural framework.

                        It's not the only way, of course, but certainly one that works, and works very well.
                        Sounds like you've figured it out in a way I suppose I haven't. I look forward to seeing your movies.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Plot Point 2

                          I don't understand why ppl get all huffy when discussing this stuff.

                          We can discuss one aspect of screenwriting, like structure, without negating the importance of others, like theme or character development or whatever...

                          The original post had to do with a question re: a popularly known plot point that appears in movies...

                          That's what this thread is about.

                          Not every discussion has to turn into a pissing match y'know.

                          "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

                          ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Plot Point 2

                            Originally posted by stvnlra View Post
                            ...Not every discussion has to turn into a pissing match y'know.

                            Ah, but so many of them do, here and elsewhere in cyberspace. Human irascibility has been placed on view for everyone to see as never before, thanks to the world wide web....

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Plot Point 2

                              Originally posted by stvnlra View Post
                              Not every discussion has to turn into a pissing match y'know.
                              Where is this "pissing match" you speak of?

                              I would totally, emphatically win on account of my narrow urethra.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Plot Point 2

                                I don't mean to undermine the importance of "calculate less", because it's an invaluable mantra (particularly for me), but I have a question for the working writers:

                                Do you know any successful writers who do the opposite? It seems reasonable to think some people write (their) best from a pedantic place, while others, maybe even most others, don't.

                                Either way, I think the OP is unnecessarily concerned about conforming to a particular template that doesn't serve the story he's (?) trying to write. Go with what works for the story. That's primary.
                                Standing on a hill in my mountain of dreams telling myself it's not as hard, hard, hard as it seems.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X