Central Dramatic Argument

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  • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

    This from a few years ago... seems like August writes from a core idea more than theme.

    http://johnaugust.com/2010/writing-from-theme

    My only comment -- if you're adapting a novel, you probably are writing from theme without realizing it -- simply because the writer of the source material already has the theme incorporated -- you're not "creating" it.

    Comment


    • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

      I disagree with you, and maybe John and I should podcast this one.

      Here's a list of the themes he identified in his own work:

      Originally posted by John August
      Charlie’s Angels: Three princesses must save their father, the King.
      Charlie and the Chocolate Factory: Charlie Bucket was lucky even without the ticket, because he was surrounded by family who loved him.
      The Remnants: The end of the world isn’t so bad.
      Snake People: Mother is a monster.
      The Variant: You are still your younger self.
      The Nines: A creator’s responsibility to his creations.
      Go: You cross a line, then your only way out is to accelerate.
      1. Not a CDA.
      2. Argument
      3. Argument.
      4. Not a CDA.
      5. Argument.
      6. Argument (presuming you phrase it as "A creator's responsibility is to his creations.")
      7. Argument.

      John wasn't the only writer on Charlie's, so I don't know if there was an argument that pre- or post-existed him.

      I've never heard of Snake People... so I'll ask him about that. one.

      But all the others are clearly central dramatic arguments.

      Comment


      • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

        Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post

        I've never heard of Snake People... so I'll ask him about that. one.

        But all the others are clearly central dramatic arguments.
        I think Snake People is a short story or novella. I remember him suggesting it for the Kindle or something.

        Comment


        • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

          Craig, I'm referring to this part of his post:

          "... Like “structure,” I see theme thrown around as a term meant to separate artists from hacks. So my eyes generally narrow when someone uses it, because I’m not sure exactly what they mean, or why they’re using it.
          One screenwriting teacher made us state the theme of our scripts as a question. Which was difficult and, in my opinion, pointless.

          The alternate version I’m positing above — the core idea or DNA — is practical and actionable. Once you feel confident what your unwritten movie wants to be, you make sure every scene and character and line of dialogue services that ideal..."

          -----

          He's saying he's writing a core idea -- I'm not putting words in his mouth. The bolded lines above state he doesn't use the CDA that you are outlining here. I'm not saying he's right and you are wrong. But rather why it's so confusing -- everyone describes theme differently.

          Comment


          • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

            Originally posted by figment View Post

            But rather why it's so confusing -- everyone describes theme differently.
            If there a 1000 different ways to think of theme, or CDA, or unifying idea, or whatever, it still shouldn't be confusing. Writers should have a sense of what works for them. It seems like this conversation would only be confusing to a writer who is looking for someone else to shape their process. That's why "calculate less" and "no rules" get repeated so often. It doesn't matter what discrepancies you find between a given writer's philosophy. These conversations can only serve to sharpen what's already in you.

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            • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

              Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
              If there a 1000 different ways to think of theme, or CDA, or unifying idea, or whatever, it still shouldn't be confusing. Writers should have a sense of what works for them. It seems like this conversation would only be confusing to a writer who is looking for someone else to shape their process. That's why "calculate less" and "no rules" get repeated so often. It doesn't matter what discrepancies you find between a given writer's philosophy. These conversations can only serve to sharpen what's already in you.
              In the Plot Point 2 thread Craig said if some posters talked to execs the way they were talking in that thread, they'd get laughed out of the room. I think he meant the posters talking about structure and using different terms from various screenwriting books.

              So, it'd be interesting to have an understanding of the terms professional screenwriters actually use, what the terms mean to them, and how they talk to execs (and/or how execs talk to them).

              Comment


              • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post

                Charlie’s Angels: Three princesses must save their father, the King.
                Charlie and the Chocolate Factory: Charlie Bucket was lucky even without the ticket, because he was surrounded by family who loved him.
                The Remnants: The end of the world isn’t so bad.
                Snake People: Mother is a monster.
                The Variant: You are still your younger self.
                The Nines: A creator’s responsibility to his creations.
                Go: You cross a line, then your only way out is to accelerate.


                1. Not a CDA.
                2. Argument
                3. Argument.
                4. Not a CDA.
                5. Argument.
                6. Argument (presuming you phrase it as "A creator's responsibility is to his creations.")
                7. Argument.
                Craig, with slight rephrasing, couldn't 1 be considered a CDA.

                Charlie’s Angels: A king is worthy of being saved by his three daughters.
                Yes? No?

                The story follows three princesses who must save their father, the king. But the real story concerns the king.

                I don't know what it's about, but Number 4 looks like a CDA. It's a perfect argument.

                Snake People: Mother is a monster.

                Yes she is. A bunch of scenes and actions and characters could prove she is.

                No, she isn't. Other scenes, etc. could prove she isn't.

                Am I missing something?


                .

                Comment


                • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                  Originally posted by iggy View Post
                  So, it'd be interesting to have an understanding of the terms professional screenwriters actually use, what the terms mean to them, and how they talk to execs (and/or how execs talk to them).
                  I don't know that there are a lot of shared "terms."

                  When you talk to an exec, you need to know what the fvck you're talking about. That's the main thing. They need to hear confidence and clarity in your thoughts. It doesn't matter if you say Plot point or "in the middle of the movie"; it doesn't matter if you say "theme" "CDA" "cohesive unity"; as long as you are speaking with command and specificity. When you are doing that, it allows them to see what you're seeing and know if you're headed in a direction they are comfortable with.

                  And even when you get it wrong (in their eyes), and now you're talking rewrite, if you are clear about what you were trying to do and why, it allows them to react.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                    If there a 1000 different ways to think of theme, or CDA, or unifying idea, or whatever, it still shouldn't be confusing. Writers should have a sense of what works for them. It seems like this conversation would only be confusing to a writer who is looking for someone else to shape their process. That's why "calculate less" and "no rules" get repeated so often.
                    Yes, you are right, some of us are looking for help with our process but it's not that we are looking for The Easy Answer or trying to copy what is working for other writers.

                    Learning what works for other writers and how they approach writing get us thinking and looking at our own work with a fresh perspective. Many of these mega threads have hit me with a lot of I never thought about it that way moments. I take the stuff I like and what works for me and incorporate it into my way of doing things.
                    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

                    Comment


                    • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                      Hi,
                      I was wondering about adaptations. Does the CDA work the same way as discussed here; or, does a pre-determined storyline need to guide the writer's choice of theme and assertion? Are there ways you might approach a CDA in that instance, such as gaining a feel for the major issues in the subtext of the original work, which subsequently guides how specific scenes are written, or...?

                      Any info would be appreciated.

                      (Just for disclosure, I'm not writing an adaption, I'm just curious for broader discussion as I really like this method as a creative tool).
                      life happens
                      despite a few cracked pots-
                      and random sunlight

                      Comment


                      • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                        Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                        Craig, with slight rephrasing, couldn't 1 be considered a CDA.

                        Charlie's Angels: A king is worthy of being saved by his three daughters.
                        Yes? No?

                        The story follows three princesses who must save their father, the king. But the real story concerns the king.

                        I don't know what it's about, but Number 4 looks like a CDA. It's a perfect argument.

                        Snake People: Mother is a monster.

                        Yes she is. A bunch of scenes and actions and characters could prove she is.

                        No, she isn't. Other scenes, etc. could prove she isn't.

                        Am I missing something?


                        .
                        Yes, you are missing something. Dramatic arguments or themes or movie DNA or whatever you want to call them need to be *universal*.

                        They must be arguments that anyone could apply-- not just the characters in the movie, but the people in the audience as well.

                        People can't apply "This particular mother is a monster" to their lives. They could apply "All mothers are monsters," although that would be a particularly crappy theme, since it's evidently not true.

                        "A king is worthy of being saved" isn't a universal argument either.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                          Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
                          I don't know that there are a lot of shared "terms."

                          When you talk to an exec, you need to know what the fvck you're talking about. That's the main thing. They need to hear confidence and clarity in your thoughts. It doesn't matter if you say Plot point or "in the middle of the movie"; it doesn't matter if you say "theme" "CDA" "cohesive unity"; as long as you are speaking with command and specificity. When you are doing that, it allows them to see what you're seeing and know if you're headed in a direction they are comfortable with.

                          And even when you get it wrong (in their eyes), and now you're talking rewrite, if you are clear about what you were trying to do and why, it allows them to react.
                          This is a superimportant point. PLEASE DO NOT THINK ANYONE WILL KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT if you say "CDA" in a meeting

                          They won't.

                          You can talk about theme. You can say "central dramatic argument" if you want.

                          But mostly... you should AVOID JARGON COMPLETELY. Don't talk about pinch points and midpoints and act thrusts and low points and blah blah blah.

                          Talk about your characters. Talk about your story. Be specific to the movie you are spinning.

                          These people are the patients. We are the doctors. They need to hear a diagnosis and a prognosis. Not a bunch of med school gobbledegook.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                            Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                            Yes, you are missing something. Dramatic arguments or themes or movie DNA or whatever you want to call them need to be *universal*.

                            They must be arguments that anyone could apply-- not just the characters in the movie, but the people in the audience as well.

                            People can't apply "This particular mother is a monster" to their lives. They could apply "All mothers are monsters," although that would be a particularly crappy theme, since it's evidently not true.

                            "A king is worthy of being saved" isn't a universal argument either.
                            Craig, thanks for the clear answer. How could I forget that the argument in the CDA should apply to a UNIVERSAL theme.

                            Perhaps thats why many of my story ideas are not very large.

                            Does it make sense that a screenplay can be about a particular mother who may or may not be a monster or king who must be saved by his daughters, but the stories should inform a CDA, an argument concerning a universal theme. What I mean is the CDA for the mother story, for example, should relate to an argument about mothers in general never being monsters or something like that?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                              In an old thread, Tao (Wheeler) called it a thesis which is argued pro/con throughout the script. Though he used a different term, he described it like Craig did. Once I got the hang of it, it is a powerful method. Whether you form it as a question or a statement, it's an idea that's debated throughout the film and drives the protag's arc. You can play with the way you work it in.

                              In my future set script, my cynical protag states her thesis (in opposition to mine as writer) in an argument she has with an idealistic supporting character on page 10.

                              MILLER
                              What? You mean sell out like you did?


                              JEAN
                              Idealism. It's so 20th century.

                              MILLER
                              Yeah? What about freedom?

                              JEAN
                              Listen to you. Freedom? Freedom means
                              you get to choose your master. Choose,
                              Ian. Before someone chooses for you.

                              This argument is worked in throughout. Every character has to make choices -- to either passively go along with the status quo or make an individual choice. It really helps me, the writer, stay clear. Why does character X do this or Y do that?
                              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                              Comment


                              • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                                Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                                Craig, thanks for the clear answer. How could I forget that the argument in the CDA should apply to a UNIVERSAL theme.

                                Perhaps thats why many of my story ideas are not very large.

                                Does it make sense that a screenplay can be about a particular mother who may or may not be a monster or king who must be saved by his daughters, but the stories should inform a CDA, an argument concerning a universal theme. What I mean is the CDA for the mother story, for example, should relate to an argument about mothers in general never being monsters or something like that?
                                Yes, that's right. Among its many purposes, drama uses individual stories to illuminate the common human experience.

                                That's why your argument needs to feel relatable. "All mothers are bitches" isn't relatable.

                                "A child's love for a parent isn't unconditional" however, is a reasonable argument to make. People might disagree, but they can *relate* to the story of a child with an awful mother.

                                That's why the CDA is important, in my eyes, to narrative. It's the specific way in which the audience will relate to the events unfolding on the screen.

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