Re: Can you go too far in Horror?
Anthony, I'm not here to give you a get out clause. In terms of the quality of your script or your writing or anything else. You're going to have to take the feedback you get, try to correlate it and come to your own judgement about what you need to do/work on etc. Ultimately you can only get it to the point where you think it is as good as you can make it and then try sending it out. You either fail or succeed and you move on to the next thing and so on and so forth, and hopefully you improve a little each time out. With that long and complicated disclaimer out of the way...
Taste is something that factors big time where evaluations are concerned. This is why the blacklist is both brilliant and paradoxically also useless. So you're a reader who's being paid barely above minimum wage, and you start reading something that you find 'distasteful' or something that you're just not in the mood for or find enjoyable or entertaining. The reality is that you're going to skim. You're going to speed read the dialog and look for the major beats. Because you've ready so many scripts that you feel like it's enough to get a handle on the broad strokes of the story. You've already decided that this is a crap script, probably by page 10.
Now the script might have a lot of craft, quality and nuance. But usually you only get that from really reading the full script, and that's just not going to happen in this case.
So you'll get an overall score at the end and you'll get low/lower scores for everything else etc. They only need to write a couple of paragraphs and really if they are at all intelligent about it, you have no way of proving that they did not really read the script. Some posters have earlier talked about cultural norms, and I think that's really the bottom line. Once you trigger a reader's ICK factor, that's it you're out. The blacklist is really NOT a place for scripts that are DARK or that are truthful about the DARKER sides of human nature. And in that sense the content of the review is useless.
(This is before we start to even think about subjectivity, because scripts that score 8/9 from some readers have been known to score 4/5 from others)
But there is one thing the blacklist is very good at, and that is as a barometer of the INDUSTRY reaction to your material. Because really, until you're somebody, NO ONE is going to give you a full considered read. Go out there and read blogs. You'll read articles from working, successful screenwriters who get notes back from producers and others in the business that they're working with and they will look at those notes and be dumbfounded as to how ANYONE who had actually READ the script could have come up with such mind numbingly idiotic feedback. This is a STAPLE of the industry that happens to PROS all the time. The bottom line is - if you're getting this kind of feedback in the BL it'll probably be the same in contests and with the industry in general.
The black list is for genre and for mass appeal, or even 'general appeal.' It's not really the place for material that is in any way, shape or form truly challenging or innovative where structure and 'rules' are concerned. i.e. the Black list is very much part of the mainstream consciousness. There was an article on the Nate Silver site about black list statistics etc. And there was an interview (i believe) with Leanord and he pretty much said. 'Erotic stuff' doesn't do well. (According to him because most people do it badly). The reality is that certain tastes and attitudes are too deeply ingrained and there's just nothing you can do about it.
This is why other readers such as Screenplay Mechanic, Script gal etc are also good and paradoxically bad. Because they depend on repeat business and there is a personal connection so they HAVE to read the entire script. Also as most of the time they will be writing a synopsis on it as part of the coverage which BL readers don't do. (This is why the 25$ hosting charge is a fatal flaw of the BL. Writers would be better served paying 75 or even 100$ for coverage with a synopsis included. Scores would be fairer then and I suspect much more homogenized than the wild variations you currently get - which I suggest are a result of readers skimming.)
So the feedback from other sources are great for getting the best version of that script but in that respect aren't really a barometer of how the industry will respond, except for the consider/recommend/pass mark.
My own personal experience with this is thus:
My last script scored 8, 7, 6 on the black list with three readers. My latest script scored a 4 and a 5. (At least one of the readers said that my sex scenes were out there to deliberately shock people - which is absolute nonsense, because all I did was write the TRUTH) And similarly low scores on other the sub sections. I'd like to think that I've been working at my craft and that it has gotten better and not worse. And I put in just as much if not more effort into the script. The biggest difference though is that this script is very dark and on the other side of the ICK factor, since I tried to tell a story that was HONEST about sex addiction in women. Sex addiction and ESPECIALLY female sexuality are big taboo's culturally still. (This is a script that got strong positive reviews from Screenplay Mechanic and Script gal, as well as the UK based Industrial scripts who selected it for their 'talent connector' program.)
In any case, I took the black list feedback into account and toned down the sex in the script. I shifted as much as possible of it too off screen and minimised descriptions. I toned down any scene that could be perceived as offensive. I tried to do this while remaining as HONEST as I could to the story and message of the script.
A funny thing happened. I had sent this script out to a few people, producers etc. that I knew and had not received a SINGLE response from till this point. After I made the changes, the first producer I sent it to, a woman, got in touch the next day, interested in meeting up. I've had interest from another local producer since. Ironically, this producer wants me to be true to my vision and put the sex stuff back in and make it stronger. And I find myself in the ridiculous position of saying to him - 'I know the hard way how people are going to react and if we want to get through the gatekeepers to a good actress etc. through her agent, we will have to tone it down.'
My personal feeling is that the script in its current form would get me more interest from local producers and if things don't work out with the producer I'm currently engaged with I might try my hand at US producers as well.
So yeah, was it craft or taste or whatever? Ultimately the black list was worth it in a very bitter sort of way. It made it CLEAR to me how people were reacting to my material, people who did not need to sugar coat anything and who I could not be sure had even read the damn script - which is what will happen when you send it to anyone in the industry. You don't know whether they quit on page 1 or page 45, but once they quit, the script is rubbish as far as they're concerned.)
Hope you find something useful in there. I suspect the human centipede would probably score quite low if it was put up on the blacklist before it became successful. (And would probably still score the same even now) Not that I think it's a good film or script. I wouldn't know since I haven't seen/read it.
Anthony, I'm not here to give you a get out clause. In terms of the quality of your script or your writing or anything else. You're going to have to take the feedback you get, try to correlate it and come to your own judgement about what you need to do/work on etc. Ultimately you can only get it to the point where you think it is as good as you can make it and then try sending it out. You either fail or succeed and you move on to the next thing and so on and so forth, and hopefully you improve a little each time out. With that long and complicated disclaimer out of the way...
Taste is something that factors big time where evaluations are concerned. This is why the blacklist is both brilliant and paradoxically also useless. So you're a reader who's being paid barely above minimum wage, and you start reading something that you find 'distasteful' or something that you're just not in the mood for or find enjoyable or entertaining. The reality is that you're going to skim. You're going to speed read the dialog and look for the major beats. Because you've ready so many scripts that you feel like it's enough to get a handle on the broad strokes of the story. You've already decided that this is a crap script, probably by page 10.
Now the script might have a lot of craft, quality and nuance. But usually you only get that from really reading the full script, and that's just not going to happen in this case.
So you'll get an overall score at the end and you'll get low/lower scores for everything else etc. They only need to write a couple of paragraphs and really if they are at all intelligent about it, you have no way of proving that they did not really read the script. Some posters have earlier talked about cultural norms, and I think that's really the bottom line. Once you trigger a reader's ICK factor, that's it you're out. The blacklist is really NOT a place for scripts that are DARK or that are truthful about the DARKER sides of human nature. And in that sense the content of the review is useless.
(This is before we start to even think about subjectivity, because scripts that score 8/9 from some readers have been known to score 4/5 from others)
But there is one thing the blacklist is very good at, and that is as a barometer of the INDUSTRY reaction to your material. Because really, until you're somebody, NO ONE is going to give you a full considered read. Go out there and read blogs. You'll read articles from working, successful screenwriters who get notes back from producers and others in the business that they're working with and they will look at those notes and be dumbfounded as to how ANYONE who had actually READ the script could have come up with such mind numbingly idiotic feedback. This is a STAPLE of the industry that happens to PROS all the time. The bottom line is - if you're getting this kind of feedback in the BL it'll probably be the same in contests and with the industry in general.
The black list is for genre and for mass appeal, or even 'general appeal.' It's not really the place for material that is in any way, shape or form truly challenging or innovative where structure and 'rules' are concerned. i.e. the Black list is very much part of the mainstream consciousness. There was an article on the Nate Silver site about black list statistics etc. And there was an interview (i believe) with Leanord and he pretty much said. 'Erotic stuff' doesn't do well. (According to him because most people do it badly). The reality is that certain tastes and attitudes are too deeply ingrained and there's just nothing you can do about it.
This is why other readers such as Screenplay Mechanic, Script gal etc are also good and paradoxically bad. Because they depend on repeat business and there is a personal connection so they HAVE to read the entire script. Also as most of the time they will be writing a synopsis on it as part of the coverage which BL readers don't do. (This is why the 25$ hosting charge is a fatal flaw of the BL. Writers would be better served paying 75 or even 100$ for coverage with a synopsis included. Scores would be fairer then and I suspect much more homogenized than the wild variations you currently get - which I suggest are a result of readers skimming.)
So the feedback from other sources are great for getting the best version of that script but in that respect aren't really a barometer of how the industry will respond, except for the consider/recommend/pass mark.
My own personal experience with this is thus:
My last script scored 8, 7, 6 on the black list with three readers. My latest script scored a 4 and a 5. (At least one of the readers said that my sex scenes were out there to deliberately shock people - which is absolute nonsense, because all I did was write the TRUTH) And similarly low scores on other the sub sections. I'd like to think that I've been working at my craft and that it has gotten better and not worse. And I put in just as much if not more effort into the script. The biggest difference though is that this script is very dark and on the other side of the ICK factor, since I tried to tell a story that was HONEST about sex addiction in women. Sex addiction and ESPECIALLY female sexuality are big taboo's culturally still. (This is a script that got strong positive reviews from Screenplay Mechanic and Script gal, as well as the UK based Industrial scripts who selected it for their 'talent connector' program.)
In any case, I took the black list feedback into account and toned down the sex in the script. I shifted as much as possible of it too off screen and minimised descriptions. I toned down any scene that could be perceived as offensive. I tried to do this while remaining as HONEST as I could to the story and message of the script.
A funny thing happened. I had sent this script out to a few people, producers etc. that I knew and had not received a SINGLE response from till this point. After I made the changes, the first producer I sent it to, a woman, got in touch the next day, interested in meeting up. I've had interest from another local producer since. Ironically, this producer wants me to be true to my vision and put the sex stuff back in and make it stronger. And I find myself in the ridiculous position of saying to him - 'I know the hard way how people are going to react and if we want to get through the gatekeepers to a good actress etc. through her agent, we will have to tone it down.'
My personal feeling is that the script in its current form would get me more interest from local producers and if things don't work out with the producer I'm currently engaged with I might try my hand at US producers as well.
So yeah, was it craft or taste or whatever? Ultimately the black list was worth it in a very bitter sort of way. It made it CLEAR to me how people were reacting to my material, people who did not need to sugar coat anything and who I could not be sure had even read the damn script - which is what will happen when you send it to anyone in the industry. You don't know whether they quit on page 1 or page 45, but once they quit, the script is rubbish as far as they're concerned.)
Hope you find something useful in there. I suspect the human centipede would probably score quite low if it was put up on the blacklist before it became successful. (And would probably still score the same even now) Not that I think it's a good film or script. I wouldn't know since I haven't seen/read it.
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