Joker

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  • #16
    Re: Joker

    Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
    Here in North Dallas we have 1/2 price on Tuesdays and then Wednesdays are like $6. I think the most i've done is three in a single day. I used to always do a min of two.

    the 3 movie deal i did the last film was Zodiac and it was so long i think i fell asleep like four time... left at like 1:30 am. ha.

    the seat get booked up fast for sure. I'll try to get tickets tomorrow am. I think I'm gonna like it. i often write dark stories.

    Well, you're in for a treat. It's a simple story, but has a very complex character - which in my book, is deceptively very hard to pull off. I'd be curious to see what you think about it and what the crowd reaction was like in your theater. Mine loved it and didn't seem to be turned off by the dark material.

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    • #17
      Re: Joker

      Stellar film and Phoenix gave an excellent, Oscar worthy performance ... just not as Joker. It just seems that Taxi Driver was encased in the Joker brand.

      Lawrence Sher did a magnificent job as DP.
      "I ask every producer I meet if they need TV specs they say yeah. They all want a 40 inch display that's 1080p and 120Hz. So, I quit my job at the West Hollywood Best Buy."
      - Screenwriting Friend

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      • #18
        Re: Joker

        Didn't hate it. Didn't love it. It's a Taxi Driver and King of Comedy homage with a coat of clown paint.

        One thing is bothering me though as I reflect on this movie a few days later: The Joker was an incompetent loser.

        He can't hold down a job. He's too delusional to realize his stand-up sucks. He has seemingly no friends or positive relationships. He displays no real intelligence. He's an eccentric, mentally-ill, maladjusted loser.

        Yet we're to believe that this same guy who lives with his mom and can't scheme his way out of his rent-a-clown life of living from gig to gig is suddenly going to become some criminal mastermind? This guy is a threat to Batman? I don't buy it.

        The character as written in this movie would bungle his first major operation, and get arrested or killed shortly thereafter. What I liked about the Ledger Joker is that he was unstable and scary, yet also fiendishly clever. You can buy him as a leader and architect.

        The Phoenix Joker is too simple, clumsy, and scatterbrained to be believable as an eventual supervillain.

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        • #19
          Re: Joker

          Originally posted by DaltWisney View Post
          He can't hold down a job. He's too delusional to realize his stand-up sucks. He has seemingly no friends or positive relationships. He displays no real intelligence. He's an eccentric, mentally-ill, maladjusted loser.

          Yet we're to believe that this same guy who lives with his mom and can't scheme his way out of his rent-a-clown life of living from gig to gig is suddenly going to become some criminal mastermind? This guy is a threat to Batman? I don't buy it.

          The character as written in this movie would bungle his first major operation, and get arrested or killed shortly thereafter. What I liked about the Ledger Joker is that he was unstable and scary, yet also fiendishly clever. You can buy him as a leader and architect.

          The Phoenix Joker is too simple, clumsy, and scatterbrained to be believable as an eventual supervillain.
          Good points. As written, this Joker ought not be a part of any Batman reboot. At the very least, Todd should've made him a lonely intellectual if he was going to be some pitied sap.
          "I ask every producer I meet if they need TV specs they say yeah. They all want a 40 inch display that's 1080p and 120Hz. So, I quit my job at the West Hollywood Best Buy."
          - Screenwriting Friend

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          • #20
            Re: Joker

            Wow, this movie was hella dark.

            For me, if he had had one scene of defending someone else, before everything goes unraveling on and on and on, it would've made me feel sympathy for him. For instance, if he'd have shot the initial subway guys because they were harassing the girl on the train, it would've made him have more of an arc. (highlight for spoiler)

            As it was it just piled on so much that I became numb to it by the time the murder of Randall and his mom and the De Niro character happened. (highlight to see spoiler)

            Also, who would you say the antagonist was? His own mind? His past? Society in general?

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            • #21
              Re: Joker

              (Spoilers)
              I had a completely different reaction to it. I thought it was brilliant. Joaquin was the best Joker. He's the most realistic Joker. The other two Jokers were great, but they were more cartoonish, so I never really felt like I'd ever encounter them in real life. Joaquin feels like a scary guy that can go off on you in Hollywood Boulevard. Criminal masterminds, mass killers and even successful killers are a complete mess in their personal lives. Just because they are a zero in their personal lives, doesn't mean they aren't capable of great destruction. The only real problem I had with it was the scene where he killed his mother. The others were culpable, while his mother felt like a mentally ill woman who couldn't help it. I had fully expected the Joker to defend the Subway girl, but the scene played out differently. Which is why that scene was so brilliant. He's not going to react in the same way that you'd think everyone else is. He's not following the script. He's a wildcard. He caught those Subway guys by surprise. We're projecting how he'd be written if he were following a hero arc. But, he's a villain. His antagonist is society in general, especially those abusive people in power. People are going to react differently to movies. I've seen this one several times now and the audiences seemed to really love it. I usually do not hear that much dissection of the movie afterwards, but I heard people keep talking about it for a good 15 minutes out the door and into the lobby.

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              • #22
                Re: Joker

                Spoilers...

                Originally posted by Friday View Post
                We're projecting how he'd be written if he were following a hero arc. But, he's a villain.
                Sure, but (for me), if there were more of an escalation rather than just piled-on trauma after trauma I would've been more involved with him as a character -- rooting for him to overcome. The movie never let me have any hope for him. So my emotions weren't a rollercoaster, they were just a death spiral from the get-go.

                I did like the mob of clowns. But again, there was an opportunity for him to feel accomplished at having inspired that, but the movie wouldn't even give him that much.

                I'm not trying to convince you, just unscrambling my own thoughts.

                Definite Oscar nom for Joaquin, though. Looked like he lost half his body weight. His rib cage didn't look human.

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                • #23
                  Re: Joker

                  Originally posted by figment View Post
                  Spoilers...



                  Sure, but (for me), if there were more of an escalation rather than just piled-on trauma after trauma I would've been more involved with him as a character -- rooting for him to overcome. The movie never let me have any hope for him. So my emotions weren't a rollercoaster, they were just a death spiral from the get-go.

                  I did like the mob of clowns. But again, there was an opportunity for him to feel accomplished at having inspired that, but the movie wouldn't even give him that much.

                  I'm not trying to convince you, just unscrambling my own thoughts.

                  Definite Oscar nom for Joaquin, though. Looked like he lost half his body weight. His rib cage didn't look human.

                  Yeah, we're definitely going to experience the movie in different ways. That's what I like about the movie. It's not sugarcoated trying to please everyone. Well, the pile on kind of reflects life. For some people, it just keeps piling on. That's more realistic. I can see him struggling to cling to his humanity. At first, he's trying to be a comedian and following the "Put on a happy face" that his mom tells him, but that doesn't pan out. The world turns out to be much crueler and you can see him devolving. This is the type of drama with heavy character study you'd expect to see at a Laemle. I am surprised they had the guts to bank a whole franchise on. I have a newfound respect for Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix. I had a high opinion of them before, this movie just floored me.


                  I think if you look at it more from the tragedy viewpoint and not the hero viewpoint, you might have a different appreciation for it. I've seen this movie a million times, so I've had time to digest it and unpack it different ways. At first, I was fighting it, trying to project how I'd want him to be sympathetic, but then I realized that they had to walk the line of him being a villain. In Scarface, you just know there's never going to be hope of Pacino ending well...

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                  • #24
                    Re: Joker

                    I'm in the this was good / not masterpiece camp.

                    The highlights:

                    * Joaquin Phoenix.
                    * De Niro.
                    * The score.
                    * Great and rare depiction of mental illness, pretty much never captured in mass market film.

                    The lowlights:

                    * Relies too heavily on Taxi Driver / King of Comedy, way too heavily.
                    * Lack of direction in the character for the greater chunk of the movie (literally just a guy that things happen to).
                    * Pretty much no story, which can be okay but not in conjunction with above.
                    * Batman stuff not needed at all.

                    I still liked it. But being currently #13 movie of all-time on IMDb is ridiculous.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Joker

                      Finally caught this as well and I thought it was good. My only real complaint is that Phoenix's Joker, while excellently portrayed, was just a little too wimpy and victimized. I get it's an origin story and we'll see more development in the next but it makes it harder to sell that this guy turns into a mastermind cutthroat like Ledger's Joker. Just my opinion but I thought the hints of a backstory we got in The Dark Knight fit well. Maybe I just expected different and I need to watch this again.
                      Last edited by DDoc; 01-14-2020, 08:35 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Joker

                        Originally posted by DaltWisney View Post

                        One thing is bothering me though as I reflect on this movie a few days later: The Joker was an incompetent loser.

                        He can't hold down a job. He's too delusional to realize his stand-up sucks. He has seemingly no friends or positive relationships. He displays no real intelligence. He's an eccentric, mentally-ill, maladjusted loser.

                        Yet we're to believe that this same guy who lives with his mom and can't scheme his way out of his rent-a-clown life of living from gig to gig is suddenly going to become some criminal mastermind? This guy is a threat to Batman? I don't buy it.

                        The character as written in this movie would bungle his first major operation, and get arrested or killed shortly thereafter. What I liked about the Ledger Joker is that he was unstable and scary, yet also fiendishly clever. You can buy him as a leader and architect.

                        The Phoenix Joker is too simple, clumsy, and scatterbrained to be believable as an eventual supervillain.
                        Just saw this post. Excellent write-up. I agree completely.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Joker

                          Originally posted by DaltWisney View Post
                          He can't hold down a job. He's too delusional to realize his stand-up sucks. He has seemingly no friends or positive relationships. He displays no real intelligence. He's an eccentric, mentally-ill, maladjusted loser.

                          Yet we're to believe that this same guy who lives with his mom and can't scheme his way out of his rent-a-clown life of living from gig to gig is suddenly going to become some criminal mastermind? This guy is a threat to Batman? I don't buy it.
                          Denial doesn't mean unintelligent. A softie now doesn't mean softie for life (George McFly). He's cossetted by his mother and trying to be nice, friendly and a part of society - he lets people push him about because he's been told that's only what bullies do and that his niceness will be rewarded, plus he's trying to keep a lid on his psychosis. But once he lets go of trying to fit in, to be as society expects, to follow convention - once he realises he's been extremely naive - and once he rejects self and social-imposed boundaries and embraces his madness - then it's very plausible that he can metamorphosis into the villain.

                          As for botching his first job , I'll wager that a pre-Batman Bruce Wayne wasn't hot shit, either.
                          Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 01-15-2020, 01:06 PM.
                          M.A.G.A.

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