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Old 01-03-2015, 11:09 PM   #121
nativeson
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Default Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

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Originally Posted by ricther View Post
As an African American who wants to break into this industry, it makes me sick that issues of race are still so highly present. Unless it's important to the story, i.e. a movie about slaves, then race should not matter. At All! And I guess the same people who have a problem with Idris Elba just being mentioned as a possible new James Bond, also have a problem with Michael B. Jordan being cast as Johnny Storm or the fact that there will be a black stormtrooper in the new Star Wars movie. Just Stop.
Apples and oranges. The NEW Star Wars is a NEW story. Clearly, many people take issue with protags/Heros in 'existing' stories. Simply swapping race or sex arbitrarily -- if your TRULY open-minded -- could also be seen as crass commercialism. Want a new black hero? Why not write a NEW story for a new black hero. It boggles the mind how we have to change existing stories and traditions to not be seen as racist while totally ignoring the obvious -- creating a new black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. hero. We're writers aren't we? WTF?! Why aren't we REALLY creating something new? BTW, I'd go see a black bond, but lack of creativity seems to be the real issue in all this hyperbole.


P.S. Nobody really gives a sh!t what storm troopers look like under the mask. They're STORM TROOPERS.

Last edited by nativeson : 01-03-2015 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 01-04-2015, 12:34 AM   #122
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Default Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

If the next Bond movies are set in the 50s or 60s he should definitely be a white male.

If the next Bond movies are set in present day, he can be any color or gender so long as they are British.

Sorry to the purists out there but the world has changed since Flemming's original vision/creation. If you want to remain true to original, then Bond would be dead by now or close to it. Either make a period piece or allow Bond to be updated. Welcome to a brave new world.
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Old 01-04-2015, 12:45 AM   #123
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Default Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

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If the next Bond movies are set in present day, he can be any color or gender so long as they are British.
Exactly.

Bond isn't a period piece.

Why the hell a non-white 007 in a contemporary setting would trouble anyone is completely beyond me.
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Old 01-04-2015, 01:14 AM   #124
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Default Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

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Sorry to the purists out there but the world has changed since Flemming's original vision/creation.
I can think of another name for "purists" that's not so flattering.

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Either make a period piece or allow Bond to be updated. Welcome to a brave new world.
It's sad how many people are determined to stay stuck in the past because it's comforting to them. I commend the people who are forward-thinking enough to embrace change.
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Old 01-04-2015, 01:33 AM   #125
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Default Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

Zzzz... 'Arbitrarily changing the race or sex of an established character in an established story' is sad, and nothing more than a marketing gimmick to stay employed. It's an artistically shallow enterprise that commands far less respect than creating a NEW hero and a NEW story. Given a choice, I'd see a new story first. I'd rather be known as the visionary who created something new, than the hack marionette who made superficial changes to make a buck.
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Old 01-04-2015, 04:58 AM   #126
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Default Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

Holy f**k this s**t is going on way too f*****g long. While there is definitely still racism within the film industry there's also a huge lack of creativity as nativeson says. Both trouble me.
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Old 01-04-2015, 07:39 AM   #127
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Default Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

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Originally Posted by nativeson View Post
Arbitrarily changing the race or sex of an established character in an established story' is sad, and nothing more than a marketing gimmick to stay employed.
From various sources:

While it has long been known that Sean Connery was not Ian Fleming's first choice to play James Bond, it has just been revealed that things were far worse than anyone ever knew. During an October 15 interview with the South Bank Show, Connery told interviewer Melvin Bragg that he had “little time” for Fleming and that 007′s creator was initially angered that a “working class Scot” had earned the role. These recent revelations come on the heels of another 50 year old secret: that Ian Fleming had a list of seven actors for the part including Cary Grant and David Niven, but not Connery. In fact, according to Connery, he and Fleming never met until they were on the set of Dr. No. After running through a list of his preferences, they came to Connery because they “couldn’t afford most of the people they wanted.” This is all especially interesting, as Fleming certainly warmed up to Connery during his final years of life, to the extent that in his final Bond novels Fleming gave 007 a Scottish background.
http://www.universalexports.net/007news/tag/dr-no/

No doubt about it. No matter how good they are, any subsequent Bond actor falls in the shadow of Sean Connery. He defined the screen character, and played him perfectly. He had the looks, the style, the moves, and the voice. And though not letter-perfect to the character from the novels, Ian Fleming liked him in the part. So much in fact, that Fleming even gave the literary Bond a Scottish background.
http://imagewordsound.wordpress.com/...ry/james-bond/

When Sean Connery was first hired to play James Bond, Ian Fleming, the author, had remarked that he didn’t want an overgrown stuntman to play Bond. However, on seeing the first run of Dr No, Fleming was so overjoyed with Connery’s Bond, that he promptly added a Scottish background to Bond in his novels.
https://cinemascopeloid.wordpress.com/tag/sean-connery/

It was not until the penultimate novel, You Only Live Twice, that Fleming gave Bond a sense of family background, using a fictional obituary, purportedly from The Times. The book was the first to be written after the release of Dr. No in cinemas and Sean Connery's depiction of Bond affected Fleming's interpretation of the character.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_B...y_character%29

Hmmm. Let's see here:

-- James Bond's family background was not identified as Scottish in the first 11 novels in the series. It was not until the penultimate novel "You Only Live Twice" that this was made so. So, this was not an established aspect of the original character.

-- Iam Fleming originally did not see James Bond as Scottish, and was adamantly against it. However, the choice of Sean Connery was approved for "Dr. No" because the British actors Fleming desired were not affordable. Sounds a bit arbitrary to me!

-- After seeing a Scottish actor playing him in a movie, Fleming retroactively added this aspect to the character. Sounds even more arbitrary! Even sounds a bit like a marketing gimmick!

So basically, if the "purists" on here had their way, we would never have had Sean Connery as Bond. That sure would've been a bummer.
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Old 01-04-2015, 08:36 AM   #128
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Default Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

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Know what happens when you replace a white James Bond? You get John Shaft! Seriously, the first line on the character's Wikipedia page flat-out says that John Shaft was conceived as a black version of James Bond.

John Shaft is a fictional character created by screenwriter Ernest Tidyman as a sort of African American version of Ian Fleming's James Bond.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shaft

Not Bond himself, but a black answer to him. Meaning it's understood that Bond is white and Shaft is black.

Checkmate.
Yeah, you may want to look at the pieces on the board again before you use Wikipedia as your end move.

If you had bothered to actually look at the referenced link, you would've noticed that the first line mentioned in your Wikipedia article is nowhere to be found and that the actual line is this: "The idea of the fashionable, street-smart ladies' man Shaft going undercover in the wilds of Africa, armed only with a walking stick outfitted with James Bond leftovers, is a novel approach to the challenges of a second sequel [SHAFT IN AFRICA]."

By the way 'cause I know your reading skills aren't the best, but AFRICA was the third film and whoever wrote the Wiki line didn't know what he or she was talking about. Hell, for all I know, maybe you wrote that line.

The character of John Shaft was never intended to be a "sort of African American version" of James Bond. The character was the result of a guy named Alan Rinzler (Macmillan's mystery department editor) and Ron Hobbs (apparently the only black literary agent in NYC). They hired Ernest Tidyman, who not only was a journalist and freelance writer, but had an interest in the same social issues the agent and editor had.

As usual, once success hit, the character was intended to continue in further exploits and adventures, much like any other popular character. You may as well compare John Shaft to Nancy Drew if you're going to start comparing characters who get into mysterious hijinks.

Very interesting read: http://therapsheet.blogspot.com/2014...t-tidyman.html

Look. You and Chad Strohl may be racists and that's okay. This is America, you can be whatever you want. But don't try to justify the racism 'cause it's just kinda icky.
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Old 01-04-2015, 08:48 AM   #129
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Default Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

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P.S. Nobody really gives a sh!t what storm troopers look like under the mask. They're STORM TROOPERS.
Nope.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain...icle-1.2028545

Quote:
Many fans took to the internet after the trailer was posted online on Friday with some criticizing director J.J. Abrams for casting a black actor to portray a stormtrooper.
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Old 01-04-2015, 09:09 AM   #130
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Default Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

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Holy f**k this s**t is going on way too f*****g long. While there is definitely still racism within the film industry there's also a huge lack of creativity as nativeson says. Both trouble me.
'Update,' is code for I Ran Out of Ideas. And I could care less if Storm Troopers are black -- as I posted, this is a NEW story. There is no Star Wars tradition or canon saying Storm Troopers can't be any race. Everybody KNOWS this (Luke and Han wearing Storm Trooper gear in episode IV, duh).

Last edited by nativeson : 01-04-2015 at 09:41 AM.
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