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Old 03-26-2015, 12:09 PM   #31
Geoff Alexander
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Default Re: Fury

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Originally Posted by entlassen View Post
The primary goal of the Third Reich was the political and cultural unification of Germanic peoples in Europe; this was little different from what Bismarck did in 1871 when he unified many independent states into the German Empire, aside from Austria-Hungary.

Hitler, like Bismarck and most leaders in historically volatile times, used soft power when possible (annexations of the Sudetenland, Austria, Memel Territory, Bohemia and Moravia, etc.), and hard power when deemed necessary (Free City of Danzig).
Sounds like you think Hitler was a pretty reasonable guy who had no choice but to defend his nation when the world got in the way of his relatively benign goals.
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Old 03-26-2015, 12:31 PM   #32
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Few leaders in history have been reasonable. Certainly no one would call Caesar or Napoleon reasonable. The point was that you can't take a conflict that involved countless nations across three continents and pin all the blame on a single country that was involved in a territorial dispute with one other country.

And given that the government of the USSR had already exterminated at least 20 million people before WWII (which no one in Western governments seemed to care about), and given that Britain and France were global colonial powers, the idea that the Allies were benign countries trying to maintain world peace is beyond laughable.
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Old 03-28-2015, 04:48 PM   #33
Richmond Weems
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Oh, good christ. I go on vacation for a couple weeks and this is what I come home to?

"But, guys, Hitler was just trying to right the wrongs caused by World War 1. His heart was in the right place. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs."
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Old 03-30-2015, 10:34 AM   #34
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Oh, good christ. I go on vacation for a couple weeks and this is what I come home to?

"But, guys, Hitler was just trying to right the wrongs caused by World War 1. His heart was in the right place. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs."
In spite of your glibness that's ironically closer to what actually happened as opposed to the standard narrative of, "Hitler tried to take over the planet because he got an STD from a Jewish prostitute and couldn't get into art school when he was younger." Sadly, the majority of people seriously believe that's what WWII was about.
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Old 03-30-2015, 05:00 PM   #35
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In spite of your glibness that's ironically closer to what actually happened as opposed to the standard narrative of, "Hitler tried to take over the planet because he got an STD from a Jewish prostitute and couldn't get into art school when he was younger." Sadly, the majority of people seriously believe that's what WWII was about.
In spite of the glibness of YOUR tone, the standard narrative is actually that Hitler was a calculating sociopath who used, inter alia, the stab-in-the-back legend and nationalism to seduce a psychologically battered populace into going along with his hyper-bellicose nature.

And the standard narrative is amply supported in evidence by:

1) His own frickin' words in Mein Kampf and his famous speeches.
2) Incidents in his personal life like the Geli Raubal episode.
3) The gang of thugs and creeps that coalesced around him, unless you think Goebbels, Himmler, Hess, Rohm, Heydrich, Goering et al were the type of people you'd want running a country.

But, of course, you'll remind us that you're the history expert. If so, then you should realise there's more than enough history to, shock of all shocks, come to the conclusion that Hitler was indeed pretty damn bad, and that no amount of squinting through some kaleidoscope of your own design is going to distort that away.
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Old 03-30-2015, 06:44 PM   #36
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Sociopaths are characterized by their greed and lack of empathy for others. If Hitler had lacked empathy he wouldn't have done all the good he did for Germans in the 1930s. Sociopathic leaders don't, for example, end unemployment, build highways, ensure their people have affordable transportation, restructure an outdated military, or oversee an aesthetic overhaul of their country. Instead they steal the country's wealth, live in palaces eating and fornicating all day, and either let everything go to crap or turn the country into a prison camp like the USSR.

If you want to interpret this as "defending Nazis" or whatever, fine. To me it's simply a question of historical objectivity. Never forget that for decades, maybe even a century after his reign and eventual downfall, Napoleon Bonaparte was considered a supremely evil man, a lunatic, and a monster. Today, no serious historian, not even the ones critical of his life, would refer to him as any of that. As we get further away from WWII, Hitler will undoubtedly undergo a critical reassessment similar to countless leaders before him. That's pretty much what history is about: getting clearer picture of what happened, and why.
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Old 03-30-2015, 07:07 PM   #37
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Default Re: Fury

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Originally Posted by entlassen View Post
Sociopaths are characterized by their greed and lack of empathy for others. If Hitler had lacked empathy he wouldn't have done all the good he did for Germans in the 1930s. Sociopathic leaders don't, for example, end unemployment, build highways, ensure their people have affordable transportation, restructure an outdated military, or oversee an aesthetic overhaul of their country.
Uhhh... bread and circuses is a pretty standard way of winning over a population.

And as for "aesthetic overhaul", you think that stuff like "The Great German Art Exhibition" and its counterpoint "Degenerate Art" show qualifies as an "aesthetic overhaul"? Have you seen the soulless crap that was pronounced worthy? It's laughable, didactic garbage. I'll give you that the Nazi Party branding in and of itself was a work of arch genius (including Leni Refiensthal's all-too-seductive propaganda films, and the Swastika probably ranks with the Coca Cola logo as the best corporate iconography of all time), but would you genuinely put that on the positive side of the ledger?

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Instead they steal the country's wealth, live in palaces eating and fornicating all day, and either let everything go to crap or turn the country into a prison camp like the USSR.
Hitler's sociopathy manifested in constructing a fantasyland with him as the Wizard of Oz. He didn't necessarily steal wealth (although others did plenty of that). He stole souls.

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If you want to interpret this as "defending Nazis" or whatever, fine. To me it's simply a question of historical objectivity. Never forget that for decades, maybe even a century after his reign and eventual downfall, Napoleon Bonaparte was considered a supremely evil man, a lunatic, and a monster. Today, no serious historian, not even the ones critical of his life, would refer to him as any of that. As we get further away from WWII, Hitler will undoubtedly undergo a critical reassessment similar to countless leaders before him. That's pretty much what history is about: getting clearer picture of what happened, and why.
Oh, FFS.

I'd bet that Goering -- a brilliant journeyman opportunist -- knew that Hitler was off his head. But off his head in just the right way at just the right time in just the right place.

We're deep in Godwin's Law here, but yes, it does look a hell of a lot like you're defending Nazis, or at the least coming close to it.
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Old 03-30-2015, 07:48 PM   #38
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No, entlassen's defending Nazism. No two ways about it. I'm hoping he's just trolling, but who knows?

But, hey, at least he's not a nihilist. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, dude, at least it's an ethos.
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Old 03-30-2015, 08:54 PM   #39
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Uhhh... bread and circuses is a pretty standard way of winning over a population.
Bread and circuses is shallow entertainment that corrupt governments use to drug the masses into forgetting that they're living in a decaying society; current examples include college football, sitcoms, and award ceremonies. Rebuilding post-war Germany was not shallow entertainment.

Quote:
And as for "aesthetic overhaul", you think that stuff like "The Great German Art Exhibition" and its counterpoint "Degenerate Art" show qualifies as an "aesthetic overhaul"?
An aesthetic overhaul by its nature implies the rejection of previous artistic forms in favor of new ones. And let's be honest here, a lot of "art" produced during the Weimar era was senseless and hideous and reflected a society spiraling into a spiritual abyss.

http://i.imgur.com/Cfl0u.jpg

Are you really going to defend that?

Quote:
Have you seen the soulless crap that was pronounced worthy? It's laughable, didactic garbage.
Like this?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...dike(1944).jpg

Looks like something out Ancient Greece to me. You can hate it I suppose, but can you describe what's wrong with it, or why you think it's immoral?

And do you know what didactic means?

Quote:
I'll give you that the Nazi Party branding in and of itself was a work of arch genius (including Leni Refiensthal's all-too-seductive propaganda films, and the Swastika probably ranks with the Coca Cola logo as the best corporate iconography of all time), but would you genuinely put that on the positive side of the ledger?
What, Riefenstahl's films? The Coke ad? The paintings? The architecture? I'm not sure what you're trying to say, or ask.

Quote:
Hitler's sociopathy manifested in constructing a fantasyland with him as the Wizard of Oz. He didn't necessarily steal wealth (although others did plenty of that). He stole souls.
ugh. These are exactly the kind of vapid, substance-less statements that annoy me to no end. Almost nothing you said here has any kind of historical or intellectual merit.

Quote:
I'd bet that Goering -- a brilliant journeyman opportunist -- knew that Hitler was off his head. But off his head in just the right way at just the right time in just the right place.
No we're onto Goering? He was a yes man. Hitler was surrounded by them. IIRC he was also an opiate addict due to injuries he sustained in the first war, where he was a flying ace in Richtohfen's squadron.

Quote:
We're deep in Godwin's Law here, but yes, it does look a hell of a lot like you're defending Nazis, or at the least coming close to it.
Are we really going to pretend that everything that had to do with Germany between 1933 and 1945 was evil? Even the government encouraging people to not smoke, and encouraging schoolchildren to plant trees? Even that?

Do you drink coffee? You also know who drank coffee? THE NAZIS!
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Old 03-30-2015, 09:55 PM   #40
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Default Re: Fury

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Originally Posted by entlassen View Post
Bread and circuses is shallow entertainment that corrupt governments use to drug the masses into forgetting that they're living in a decaying society; current examples include college football, sitcoms, and award ceremonies. Rebuilding post-war Germany was not shallow entertainment.
Uhh.. you don't seem to understand the "bread" bit.

And if you don't think that the Nazis put on shallow (if hideous) entertainment... then your self-vaunted grasp of history needs a bit of reevaluation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by entlassen View Post
An aesthetic overhaul by its nature implies the rejection of previous artistic forms in favor of new ones. And let's be honest here, a lot of "art" produced during the Weimar era was senseless and hideous and reflected a society spiraling into a spiritual abyss.

http://i.imgur.com/Cfl0u.jpg

Are you really going to defend that?
Just so everyone reading this (all the masochists) knows: you have just posted a link to the catalogue accompanying "Degenerate Art", an exhibition put on by the Nazis to denigrate modernism and its (according to them) corrupting Jewish, avant-garde and primitive influences. There was also an accompanying "Degenerate Music" concert, with jazz as the primary focus.

And you are cribbing STRAIGHT out of their own propaganda material.

Yes, I'm going to defend it. A hell of a lot more than this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by entlassen View Post
Like thishttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...dike(1944).jpg

Looks like something out Ancient Greece to me. You can hate it I suppose, but can you describe what's wrong with it, or why you think it's immoral?
Arno Breker? Arno goddam Breker!?

Horrible, sterile, stiff, soulless kitsch of the highest order. Clumsy, hamfisted garbage.

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Originally Posted by entlassen View Post
And do you know what didactic means?
Yes. Do you?

"Around the 19th century the term didactic came to also be used as a criticism for work that appears to be overly burdened with instructive, factual, or otherwise educational information"

The Nazi-sanctioned "art" was entirely conceived to be dripping with moral instruction. The catalogue for "The Great German Art Exhibition" banged on endlessly about what each overweening piece was intended to convey in terms of the message to the viewer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by entlassen View Post
Are we really going to pretend that everything that had to do with Germany between 1933 and 1945 was evil? Even the government encouraging people to not smoke, and encouraging schoolchildren to plant trees? Even that?

Do you drink coffee? You also know who drank coffee? THE NAZIS!
The whole Nazi enterprise was a seduction. There was nothing they did that didn't have a sting in its tail.
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