What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

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  • #61
    Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

    Originally posted by fisherman View Post

    It's just that Woody Allen sucks eggs compared to George Lucas. ....


    I understand saying that Annie Hall is emblematic of the times, but that doesn't make it special or great. A lot of movies do that! It's really just a Woody Allen movie. That is all.
    Of course Star Wars is a more universal story and as such it has wider appeal in any generation. I do agree it's a great film.

    But to say, "... Woody Allen sucks eggs compared to George Lucas."

    Aw, come on!

    Woody Allen is the quintessential neurotic New Yorker. His entire body of work is an ode to New York City and the particular neurotics who make the city what it is. From generation to generation.

    Maybe it appeals to me because, no matter where I roam, I still have a New Yorker's soul. Or, like the song goes, A New York State Of Mind. It does truly exist. There's something about that city that gets into your bones. And Allen captures it perfectly.

    Lucas did great work with Star Wars. Genius work. But Allen's portfolio of New York films is also genuis. Annie Hall being likely the best.

    I'd call it a draw.

    To compare SW and AH as if it were a level playing field is not ... well, it's just not Kosher.
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • #62
      Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

      Until ANNIE HALL came around, the epitome of a romantic comedy was probably SOME LIKE IT HOT which is a bit of a screwball comedy. And before that was probably some Hepburn (either Katherine or Audrey) with the leading man at the time.

      Annie Hall re-defined what a romantic comedy is. A grounded story that's not dependent on premise or attractive actors. And it probably held that title until WHEN HARRY MET SALLY came along.

      So I don't think it's a fair comparison of ANNIE HALL vs. STAR WARS. More appropriate would be ANNIE HALL vs. other romantic comedies before and after.

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      • #63
        Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

        Originally posted by sc111 View Post
        Of course Star Wars is a more universal story and as such it has wider appeal in any generation. I do agree it's a great film.

        But to say, "... Woody Allen sucks eggs compared to George Lucas."

        Aw, come on!

        Woody Allen is the quintessential neurotic New Yorker. His entire body of work is an ode to New York City and the particular neurotics who make the city what it is. From generation to generation.

        Maybe it appeals to me because, no matter where I roam, I still have a New Yorker's soul. Or, like the song goes, A New York State Of Mind. It does truly exist. There's something about that city that gets into your bones. And Allen captures it perfectly.

        Lucas did great work with Star Wars. Genius work. But Allen's portfolio of New York films is also genuis. Annie Hall being likely the best.

        I'd call it a draw.

        To compare SW and AH as if it were a level playing field is not ... well, it's just not Kosher.
        Sc111,

        Touche. Your passion for Allen and his contributions to film is glowing.

        In all fairness, I will admit that I don't like Woody Allen and his films... That's just because I don't see film as a venue for intellectual or social critique... I think it is, at its best, a visual, visceral experience.

        While I'm a Northwest person, I understand the romanticism you NYC natives have over your city, being as my family is largely from there... But Woody... I don't know, he's not much different than Spike Lee or John Hughes to me... He captured a certain zeitgeist but like DB said it only appeals to certain people...

        I respect your perspective, though. I feel the same way about Gus Van Sant .
        "Right now it sounds like an urban Idiocracy meets Big in The Matrix (with a dash of Tron?)." --Mountain Goat, commenting on my screenplay ZONED OUT

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        • #64
          Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

          Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
          Oh, snap, son. Get a life? I think I've been burned....

          I like this guy. He thanks sc111 for putting an end to some imagined 'flame war' (what is this, anyway, 2003?) then he proceeds to unleash vulgarities and insults directly at other posters (I assume you're calling me an idiot, since you directly quoted one of my posts). And where are the mods when you need one? Oh, that's right. They're busy pulling Greenwood's panties out of a twist in some other thread.

          Anyway, Grandmaster, I'm gonna take the high road here and not resort to potty words, but your post is even less valuable to this writing community as all the other empty ones I was talking about before.

          The way that you learn from great scripts is to take them apart and do a little reverse engineering. But there is even more to learn from bad scripts by doing the same thing.

          If any of the people here bashing Annie Hall could articulate specifics about why it isn't funny, what's wrong with the plot, which jokes fall flat, which could have been done better, etc., you'd be on your way to being a comedy writer.

          But until I see someone do that (not holding my breath), I'll remain convinced that this board is populated by wanna-be's who should be posting in the Worst. Movie. Ever. threads over at Imdb. It's so much more fun to just dismiss someone as a schlubby Jew than to construct an original thought.
          Agreed. (although I still think star wars was a better movie)

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          • #65
            Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

            Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
            And now that I'm thinking about Annie Hall and how great it is, does anyone know if there has ever been another movie, before or since, that broke so many narrative rules on so many absurd levels? (eg. constantly breaking the forth wall, observing his own life as a third party, the Marshall McLuhan scene, becoming a cartoon charachter, the subtitled thoughts, etc).

            I don't even think he did it again himself. So brilliant.
            And therein lies why this particular film garners so much praise I believe. He did it and it worked. I think a lot of that was great directorial choices rather than writing but whatever it was all Woody. Doesn't mean the movie was particularly funny for example but as I've said, Woody is good at what he does.

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            • #66
              Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

              All right, well since we're talking about Woody, I'll repost what I said in another thread.

              I mean to me, above all else, the guy is just funny. Really funny. And a great director. He spends all freaking day preparing for one long scene (his trademark, long blocked tracking shots).

              And he's funny even when he's not in his own films. See for yoursefl:

              ---------------

              (my post in another thread)

              This is one of my favorite scenes in one of my favorites films of his, where Helen Sinclair, played by the magnificent Dianne Weist, considers the starring role in the new play by an up and coming young playwright (John Cusack).

              It's one long carefully blocked take, the camera follows her from room to room for over two minutes and there are no cuts.

              A classic ! Her Theatre Voice is perfection.

              Enjoy:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XbN83ZqlIU

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              • #67
                Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
                All right, well since we're talking about Woody, I'll repost what I said in another thread.

                I mean to me, above all else, the guy is just funny. Really funny. And a great director.
                Except when he directs anything in the last 20 years that wasn't a new york based comedy. See Cassandra's Dream if you don't believe me. What a piece of shyt.

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                • #68
                  Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                  Originally posted by dirtbottle View Post
                  Except when he directs anything in the last 20 years that wasn't a new york based comedy. See Cassandra's Dream if you don't believe me. What a piece of shyt.
                  You know what baby, there are filmmakers who make a film every ten years and there are those who make one every year. Not every Woody Allen film is a masterpiece, and yes, I also prefer his NY comedies or comedy-dramas above all else, BUT: holy sh@@! is the guy prolific, how he manages to come up with new material that fast, and that OFTEN, is pretty damn admirable.

                  A career we all can only dream of.

                  Yes there have been flops. But even a bad Woody Allen film is more interesting than most films.

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                  • #69
                    Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                    A great script?

                    There's so much reader in it that you can't really tell.

                    But a great movie. That you can pin down. And parts of a great movie is a great script, great acting, good directing.

                    I'm just seeing "Donnie Brasco" again. Johnny Depp and Al Pacino. Not shoving their roles and characters into your face, but you discover it as you watch the story. The story pulls you into the strange world of the mob (but in a more realistic way - Pacino's Lefty: " 30 years I'm working like a dog, and what have I got?"). This is a great movie! Of course, this reflects on the script.

                    Replace Al Pacino or Johnny Depp with mediocre actors and you have a mediocre movie. Replace Mike Newell's great direction with that of hack like Michael Bay and you have a flat, boring movie.

                    Have bad camera work, poor editing, and you lose the "great movie".

                    Great script? Not sure if there are great scripts. "Chinatown" is a great script because it's a great movie.

                    "The Usual Suspects" is almost unwatchable for the second time with its cheesy directing, bad production design, and poor camera work, but the script is still a great read. But is it "great"? After years, I read it, then tried to watch the movie. Now it seems to me like a shell, whose bullet has missed the target. The film has aged poorly. And, in my eyes, it has taken the script down with him, even though it's very, very good.

                    Can you call something great that can't stand on its own? That's depending so much on how it is turned into a movie by a director, actors, DP, and production designer?

                    I don't think so. A script is a potential movie. It can't be great, it can have great potential - depending on who's looking at it.

                    A script with great potential has a story that pulls you into its world, has characters that inspire actors, has a backdrop that inspires DP and production design.
                    "Ecco il grande Zampano!"

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                    • #70
                      Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                      Originally posted by Ulysses View Post

                      Great script? Not sure if there are great scripts. "Chinatown" is a great script because it's a great movie.
                      Chinatown is a great script because when I read it I get lost in it. I don't NEED the movie to enjoy it. Same with Butch and Sundance. It's the WAY Goldman writes. His voice just pulls you in. Makes you laugh when you're supposed to laugh. Makes the story appear in your head. I like it FAR more than the film. I even read it to my girlfriend at night before she would go to bed.

                      But here's an example of a great script (and I know it because I've not ever seen the movie) - The Queen. I wouldn't see that movie for all the money on earth because I thought what a bore, right?

                      But I get all the oscar nominated scripts from an academy member every year and I read it. The writing was great and I know because I was totally enthralled with something that is 100% out of my normal interest. Couldn't put it down.

                      Never seen the movie. Don't need to. Great script.

                      Same with "Notes on a Scandal." Never seen it. LOVED the script. It was AWESOME.

                      I've already seen the film in my mind so why bother ruining it if the execution happens to not be up to snuff?

                      If you've never read these. Check them out. They're great scripts.

                      On the other hand, Marathon Man? Script is ok. Film is WAAAAY better. So it cuts both ways.

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                      • #71
                        Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                        Originally posted by dirtbottle View Post
                        Pointless.
                        You more so.
                        Cufk, Tish, Sips.

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                        • #72
                          Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                          Something that people will connect with, even if it's a comedy or a doco or horror/sci-fi. That's what people are interested in.
                          M2 Entertainment is now accepting screenplays from all over the world. If you have a screenplay and need financing, please visit us at www.m2e.net

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                          • #73
                            Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                            Originally posted by Ulysses View Post
                            A script is a potential movie. It can't be great, it can have great potential - depending on who's looking at it.
                            You don't think a screenplay can be judged on its own merits in terms of the myriad criteria that define the form? How do contest judges or members of the Academy or even those who create the Blacklist judge screenplays if not in this manner?

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                            • #74
                              Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                              Originally posted by Ulysses View Post
                              A great script?

                              There's so much reader in it that you can't really tell.

                              But a great movie. That you can pin down. And parts of a great movie is a great script, great acting, good directing.

                              I'm just seeing "Donnie Brasco" again. Johnny Depp and Al Pacino. Not shoving their roles and characters into your face, but you discover it as you watch the story. The story pulls you into the strange world of the mob (but in a more realistic way - Pacino's Lefty: " 30 years I'm working like a dog, and what have I got?"). This is a great movie! Of course, this reflects on the script.

                              Replace Al Pacino or Johnny Depp with mediocre actors and you have a mediocre movie. Replace Mike Newell's great direction with that of hack like Michael Bay and you have a flat, boring movie.

                              Have bad camera work, poor editing, and you lose the "great movie".

                              Great script? Not sure if there are great scripts. "Chinatown" is a great script because it's a great movie.

                              "The Usual Suspects" is almost unwatchable for the second time with its cheesy directing, bad production design, and poor camera work, but the script is still a great read. But is it "great"? After years, I read it, then tried to watch the movie. Now it seems to me like a shell, whose bullet has missed the target. The film has aged poorly. And, in my eyes, it has taken the script down with him, even though it's very, very good.

                              Can you call something great that can't stand on its own? That's depending so much on how it is turned into a movie by a director, actors, DP, and production designer?

                              I don't think so. A script is a potential movie. It can't be great, it can have great potential - depending on who's looking at it.

                              A script with great potential has a story that pulls you into its world, has characters that inspire actors, has a backdrop that inspires DP and production design.
                              You feel the same about Shakespeare? Chekhov? Miller? Beckett?

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                              • #75
                                Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                                A great script is no different than a great novel.

                                As to what makes a great one? Something that affects you mentally, and keeps you thinking about it.

                                'American Psycho' is that novel, to me. Years later after one reading I can still imagine some of it. And, because of that book, I put lotion on my face before shaving cream, and still think 'Fore' was a killer album.

                                Great writing make you want to connect with it, somehow.
                                Words... they don't arrange themselves.

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