Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

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  • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
    I think Flynn's a brilliant writer
    Each to their own.

    I found her writing style so annoyingly tedious (the kitchen-sink pop-culturing was a case in point) that I couldn't finish it. I could just see the gears turning too much.

    I'm definitely not saying that you're wrong. It's a subjective thing, obviously. You can't dip litmus paper into it and come up with some sort of scientific number. And there are plenty more people who agree with you than me, so the weighing machine has spoken. In that respect at least, I'm kind-of wrong.

    And to put it into context: I don't like Shawshank Redemption. So I'm swimming upstream.

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    • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

      That's awesome, SC! That pretty much sealed the deal for me purchasing the book, specifically the way you describe her style and seemingly ease of two narration styles.

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      • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

        Originally posted by 60WordsPerHour View Post
        Each to their own.

        I found her writing style so annoyingly tedious (the kitchen-sink pop-culturing was a case in point) that I couldn't finish it. I could just see the gears turning too much.

        I'm definitely not saying that you're wrong. It's a subjective thing, obviously. You can't dip litmus paper into it and come up with some sort of scientific number. And there are plenty more people who agree with you than me, so the weighing machine has spoken. In that respect at least, I'm kind-of wrong.

        And to put it into context: I don't like Shawshank Redemption. So I'm swimming upstream.
        I know how you feel. More often than not I'm swimming up stream, too, when it comes to bestsellers.

        Originally posted by Murraypalooza View Post
        That's awesome, SC! That pretty much sealed the deal for me purchasing the book, specifically the way you describe her style and seemingly ease of two narration styles.
        The paperback is 15% off at Target.
        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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        • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

          That's more than cool, Sc. It's what makes life - and conversation - interesting!

          And snap on Misery! Great example of a truly awesome female villain - though still no family or "normal" life. (And there's that chaste, empty infertile alternate to the femme fatale, too. Though goddammit, it's a beauty, and totally compelling.)

          One of my favourite criminal characters is Bryan Brown's Pando in Two Hands. I loved those moments when he'd helping his kid with her homework (or something equally domestic), at the same time as ordering a cold-blooded hit on an associate.

          Imagine a woman doing that! So much fun to have there.

          Smurf in Animal Kingdom almost made it - but then that creepy lip-kissing relationship she had with her son undid it all. I guess audiences demand that.

          Maybe I should write something that tests that theory...

          Here's the weird thing - I enjoyed Flynn's writing in the novel for the first half. The big reveal changed all that. The second half just seemed ridiculous, all hinged on these shallow characterisations and unlikely deceits. It made me rethink everything she'd written until then. I felt cheated. Jibbed. It was right up there with "It was all a dream!"

          But I think Flynn's super cool, too, because she's kicking goals and selling books and is a novelist who (based on the credits), maintained control of the screenplay. And heaps of people are seeing the film. So that's a win. (Plus, yes indeed, indicative of mad skills.) I tend to separate the content from the writer's career - I prefer to, in most cases.

          It's a tough gig, this writing business. If I could reach even 1/1000th of her audience - books or films - I'd be laughing. A little giddy actually. (My middling career as an author couldn't be further from that.) So, lots of envy here, but not the kind that believes she doesn't deserve it. Just the kind that wishes the story itself was changing things up, rather than expanding on something that's well established and relentless. But her career is pushing boundaries, and that will have to do I guess.
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          • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

            Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
            Funny but in the films you mention, the part that's a huge turn-off to me is how easily men can be manipulated by a beautiful woman. In some ways these flicks are really offensive to men, ha (THE LAST SEDUCTION was a good one in the femme fatale genre).

            Anyway, gender cliches aside, if in real life you were actually aspiring to be a criminal, and you realized your sex appeal was a way to get what you wanted, then you'd be a fool not to use it, whether you're a man or a woman. Go into battle with your most effective weapons kind of thing. If you can't seduce with your looks, then learn how to pick a lock, I guess, or perfect the art of taking out a kneecap on a moment's notice.

            As to why these types of women are featured more often than other types of women bad asses... I don't know, 'cause it's the movies and people like to watch beautiful sultry women have steamy sex with unsuspecting hunks before ruining their lives? Isn't a beautiful woman a requirement for a film noir? Isn't violence a requirement for a mafia flick, wasn't pre-reboot 007 expected to seduce anything in a skirt, and so on?

            (By the way, Kathy Bates in MISERY. That's one that definitely goes against these tropes )

            Honestly, I'm more disappointed by cliches such as the protag's wife or gf seeming to always be a kindergarten teacher. Really, it feels like it's in every other movie. I guess HW can't think of a better occupation to communicate supportive, wholesome woman with a big heart. But in these cases, this is not a genre requirement, just lack of originality.
            I think gender stereotypes must be just as frustrating for men as for women, and I find the representation of men as stupid and weak when beautiful women are around similarly unimaginative. So, yeah.

            And I get that - in "real life", criminals would use whatever skills they have. But surely in "real life", women criminals aren't always drop dead gorgeous and capable of slaying a man at a hundred paces just by dropping her undies. Right?

            I think we can safely say that none of these movies reflect real life.

            Misery is a great example - see my previous post (think I lumped it into my response to Sc. Sorry!). I want to see more, richer, smarter, different. See my Smurf example too.

            Is that too much to ask?

            And yes, I will probably have to write it myself. But who the feck would make it? Because, honestly? We're kidding ourselves if we don't think someone's already tried this. Probably many, many times before.

            Therein lies the problem.
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            • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

              Originally posted by 60WordsPerHour View Post
              Each to their own.

              I found her writing style so annoyingly tedious (the kitchen-sink pop-culturing was a case in point) that I couldn't finish it. I could just see the gears turning too much.

              I'm definitely not saying that you're wrong. It's a subjective thing, obviously. You can't dip litmus paper into it and come up with some sort of scientific number. And there are plenty more people who agree with you than me, so the weighing machine has spoken. In that respect at least, I'm kind-of wrong.

              And to put it into context: I don't like Shawshank Redemption. So I'm swimming upstream.
              Ha! I hated Titanic - and The English Patient - so snap, on that. (I did like Shawshank, but it's a good film rather than a great one, IMHO.)
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              • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

                Oh, and if anyone wants to help a new author with a baby career who's trying to promote girls and women who don't fall to stereotype, here's a link to my debut novel that hardly anyone has bought!
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                • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

                  Finished the book last week. Haven't seen the movie yet. Have been reading all the reactions to the film, though, all over the internet. Definitely stirring up debate!

                  I thought the book was masterfully written. And, I liked the point of the book. Definitely a cautionary tale about how we effect each other, especially when we don't really SEE each other, but operate on stereotypes, or with blinders on.

                  SPOILER BELOW
















                  And, as a parent, it made me heartsick ... for real.

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                  • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

                    Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
                    Funny but in the films you mention, the part that's a huge turn-off to me is how easily men can be manipulated by a beautiful woman. In some ways these flicks are really offensive to men, ha (THE LAST SEDUCTION was a good one in the femme fatale genre)..
                    Excellent point -- I think those types of films do more to damage the perception of "all" men having dicks for brains than painting "all" women as cardboard femme fatales.

                    Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
                    Anyway, gender cliches aside, if in real life you were actually aspiring to be a criminal, and you realized your sex appeal was a way to get what you wanted, then you'd be a fool not to use it, whether you're a man or a woman. Go into battle with your most effective weapons kind of thing. ...
                    .
                    Good point. Especially a woman with a criminal mindset -- are we to expect her morals are fractured to the point she's willing to kill or steal or maim yet remain "morally above" leveraging her sex appeal if it could get her closer to her criminal goal? If the story is rooted in reality, of course she would.

                    I hate female characters who are little more than life support systems for boobs and booty propped up in a story for the male audience's benefit.

                    However, a character who owns her sexuality and does with it as she sees fit is far more groundbreaking, imo, than one who doesn't, ever, not once, not even to get out of a speeding ticket.

                    And, seriously, to worry about the MRA's (Men's Rights Advocates) when we write is - well - just strange to me. Those whackos are predisposed to think what they think, hate who they hate, regardless of what they see in movies.

                    Has any number of movies with African-Americans playing noble, heroic roles changed the whacko minds of white supremacists? Of course, not. Are we to worry that casting an African American in a "bad guy" role will flood the KKK with new members. Of course not.

                    Anyway -- great points, Rant.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                    • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

                      Originally posted by nic.h View Post
                      Oh, and if anyone wants to help a new author with a baby career who's trying to promote girls and women who don't fall to stereotype, here's a link to my debut novel that hardly anyone has bought!
                      Now I feel guilty. I was thinking of buying a download for Kindle but I much rather read a physical book. Then life got in the way and it totally slipped my mind. I will order it this week.
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                      • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

                        Don't sweat it. It's lovely that you'd even think of it. Besides, it's very Australian and maybe a bit tough at the start because of the early football references - a uniquely Australian sport. (No exaggeration - it's nothing like any "football" you're likely to have seen.) But that's really just the first few pages. Mostly it's about grief, belonging, celebrity and friendship.

                        OK - advertisement over.
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                        • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

                          Originally posted by nic.h View Post
                          That's more than cool, Sc. It's what makes life - and conversation - interesting!

                          And snap on Misery! Great example of a truly awesome female villain - though still no family or "normal" life. (And there's that chaste, empty infertile alternate to the femme fatale, too. Though goddammit, it's a beauty, and totally compelling.).
                          Don't these women exist, too, Nic? As do the seducers? As do those mentally-emotionally broken ones? I've know all of them. And I have compassion for all of them because the structure of our society has something to do with the way they've become living, breathing stereotypes (as society often turns men into living breathing stereotypes). Are we to pretend they don't exist?
                          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                          • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

                            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                            Excellent point -- I think those types of films do more to damage the perception of "all" men having dicks for brains than painting "all" women as cardboard femme fatales.



                            Good point. Especially a woman with a criminal mindset -- are we to expect her morals are fractured to the point she's willing to kill or steal or maim yet remain "morally above" leveraging her sex appeal if it could get her closer to her criminal goal? If the story is rooted in reality, of course she would.

                            I hate female characters who are little more than life support systems for boobs and booty propped up in a story for the male audience's benefit.

                            However, a character who owns her sexuality and does with it as she sees fit is far more groundbreaking, imo, than one who doesn't, ever, not once, not even to get out of a speeding ticket.

                            And, seriously, to worry about the MRA's (Men's Rights Advocates) when we write is - well - just strange to me. Those whackos are predisposed to think what they think, hate who they hate, regardless of what they see in movies.

                            Has any number of movies with African-Americans playing noble, heroic roles changed the whacko minds of white supremacists? Of course, not. Are we to worry that casting an African American in a "bad guy" role will flood the KKK with new members. Of course not.

                            Anyway -- great points, Rant.
                            I know this. But culture, popular culture in particular, really does have the power to effect change. While those at the extreme might never change, those on the border, those vulnerable to influence, can be pushed one way or the other. The mainstream, too, has shifted over time, and popular culture has been a driving force in this.

                            Think about perceptions of climate change before The Inconvenient Truth, and those after. (Not saying this is a perfect system but it's one of those most obvious recent examples.)

                            But I'm not saying we have to have this in mind all of the time. Just that as cultural producers, we do have some influence and power to help shape how society thinks. Even in a small way. And we should always be mindful of this.

                            There's been a decided shift backwards in the last few years, regarding how women and girls are portrayed, and how society views these perceptions. Like the hard work has been done so we don't have to worry any more.

                            But it hasn't. Not in reality.

                            I don't think this book/film will change things in any major way, and it feels a bit like a missed opportunity. But maybe Flynn's actions as writer/screenwriter will have a longer lasting impact, at least in industry terms.

                            I think I just talked myself into a circle.
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                            • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

                              Originally posted by nic.h View Post
                              Don't sweat it. It's lovely that you'd even think of it. Besides, it's very Australian and maybe a bit tough at the start because of the early football references - a uniquely Australian sport. (No exaggeration - it's nothing like any "football" you're likely to have seen.) But that's really just the first few pages. Mostly it's about grief, belonging, celebrity and friendship.

                              OK - advertisement over.
                              Perhaps you should toot the advertising horn more often for "dizzy dames" like me who forget things.
                              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                              • Re: Gone Girl is everything that's wrong with writers

                                Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                                Don't these women exist, too, Nic? As do the seducers? As do those mentally-emotionally broken ones? I've know all of them. And I have compassion for all of them because the structure of our society has something to do with the way they've become living, breathing stereotypes (as society often turns men into living breathing stereotypes). Are we to pretend they don't exist?
                                Of course they exist! I don't pretend they don't. But I'm saying that they seem to be the only types offered when the villain is female. And it's boring! We have two options for female villains - the super-hot femme fatale or the sexless un****able frump. (Usually burnt by a man. Actually, both are usually burnt by a man.)

                                But aren't there about a million variations in between? Imagine a female villain whose sexuality was irrelevant? Who functioned in all the "normal" ways a woman might, but was involved in crime anyway.

                                Just like we have for men.

                                My only reference point is the Marge character in Fargo - who's not even a villain. But she was pregnant and it was irrelevant to the story. A nice little character note/quirk, but that's it. She didn't give birth, lose the baby, collapse from over strain. She was just pregant. With no significant narrative outcome at all because the story took place in those many months in between conception and birth.

                                How brilliant was that? What a great story choice. Millions of women around the world are pregnant for nine months - roughly. And you know what? Nothing happens in between! Of course there are those where stuff does happen but for most women, they just keep doing what they do. Working. Living. Functioning. Exactly like they did before they were pregnant. Millions! Just like Marge did.

                                And yet we've never seen it before for a main character.* (Particularly in the crime genre.) We see it a lot in secondary characters, but protagonists?

                                So let's start looking at the stuff that happens every day that we don't see all the time in movies. Women do bad things that have nothing to do with sex/relationships/rejection at all. Let's see them in our great villains too!



                                *Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
                                Last edited by nic.h; 10-11-2014, 03:26 PM.
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