What do you think about?

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  • #31
    Re: What do you think about?

    Originally posted by Satriales View Post
    If you write a 160 page script you should be arrested. Anything on spec over 115 is excessive.
    Not a spec, but I recall Aliens is 146 pages. A brilliant script, one the best I have ever read. If it were a spec, it would be outstanding.

    Not to say that you should write long scripts. Better to write a 115 page script than a 160 page script.

    But I do think that obsessing over page count does a disservice to writer. Better be obsessive about having exactly the amount of pages that is needed.

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    • #32
      Re: What do you think about?

      Originally posted by tuukka View Post
      Not a spec, but I recall Aliens is 146 pages. A brilliant script, one the best I have ever read. If it were a spec, it would be outstanding.

      Not to say that you should write long scripts. Better to write a 115 page script than a 160 page script.

      But I do think that obsessing over page count does a disservice to writer. Better be obsessive about having exactly the amount of pages that is needed.
      Again ALIENS is a sequel to a hit movie. That's not the same as a spec.

      110 again is spec length. You can do whatever you want, but most reps won't take out a spec over that length. Simple as that.

      And when looking for a rep -- trust me shorter is better.

      But there are always always always exceptions to the rules.

      But some rules aren't there to ruin creative spirit but to just tell you the facts. You can build this house however you like, but if you build a mansion it's harder to sell than if you build a nice 4 bedroom family home in most suburbs. Both homes. But 99% of people are looking for a certain size home. Because that's the one they can afford. More pages = more money.

      I'm sure same crap in novels. Stephen King can write 1000 page books but you can't. And neither could he when he first started.

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      • #33
        Re: What do you think about?

        Originally posted by Bono View Post
        Again ALIENS is a sequel to a hit movie. That's not the same as a spec.

        110 again is spec length. You can do whatever you want, but most reps won't take out a spec over that length. Simple as that.

        And when looking for a rep -- trust me shorter is better.

        But there are always always always exceptions to the rules.

        But some rules aren't there to ruin creative spirit but to just tell you the facts. You can build this house however you like, but if you build a mansion it's harder to sell than if you build a nice 4 bedroom family home in most suburbs. Both homes. But 99% of people are looking for a certain size home. Because that's the one they can afford. More pages = more money.

        I'm sure same crap in novels. Stephen King can write 1000 page books but you can't. And neither could he when he first started.
        Yes, I know Aliens obviously wasn't a spec.

        Cameron was writing Aliens before he made Terminator. He was writing Terminator and Aliens at the same time - Two brilliant scripts.

        But the thing is: You can read one page of Aliens and you already want to read more. And the more you read, the more you want to see the film getting made.

        With 99,9% of 105-page scripts, after one page you are wondering how the hell you are going to make through it.

        People should obsess about having the exact number of pages that is needed, not obsess about reaching a certain page count. Obviously, you shouldn't write 200-300 page scripts. But that's not the point.

        If you obsess about getting the exact number of pages you need, then you will obsess about story and character. But if you obsess about page count, there is an inherent danger that you are less obsessive about story and character.

        It's the same reason why you shouldn't obsess about structure, and having certain story beats on certain pages. If you do that, you are not obsessing about story and character.

        You should let the script unfold naturally. THIS should be primary obsession.

        It's smart to have a *reasonable* page count. But if your script is longer than average, over 110 pages, and it's a real *page-turner*, then there is really no problem. Same with shorter scripts.

        If a rep isn't willing to take in a 111-page script that is great, then he sounds like a bad rep. There are a lot of bad reps - Most reps are less than good - that will fail to get you work. Better to have that great script with a genuinely good rep that understands its value. Now, if you have a 1st class rep on a proper agency who represents big clients, then I would write a script at the maximum length of 110 pages, if he demands so. Obviously. But if he is someone who doesn't really know what he is doing, maybe not worth it.

        More pages doesn't mean more money. You could claim that it means this on average, but even then it's a really big stretch. It all depends on what you have to film. A 90-minute film with extensive action/VFX set pieces is obviously going to be much more expensive than a 150-minute film with two actors talking. Even in the same genre your 120-page script can be much, much cheaper than somebody else's 90-page script.
        Last edited by tuukka; 06-30-2020, 12:01 AM.

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        • #34
          Re: What do you think about?

          Originally posted by tuukka View Post
          If you obsess about getting the exact number of pages you need, then you will obsess about story and character. But if you obsess about page count, there is an inherent danger that you are less obsessive about story and character.

          It's the same reason why you shouldn't obsess about structure, and having certain story beats on certain pages. If you do that, you are not obsessing about story and character.

          You should let the script unfold naturally. THIS should be primary obsession.

          It's smart to have a *reasonable* page count..
          Yes. Make the story work on all levels. Then be ruthless in your rewrites.
          “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: What do you think about?

            Originally posted by tuukka View Post
            Yes, I know Aliens obviously wasn't a spec.

            Cameron was writing Aliens before he made Terminator. He was writing Terminator and Aliens at the same time - Two brilliant scripts.

            But the thing is: You can read one page of Aliens and you already want to read more. And the more you read, the more you want to see the film getting made.

            With 99,9% of 105-page scripts, after one page you are wondering how the hell you are going to make through it.

            People should obsess about having the exact number of pages that is needed, not obsess about reaching a certain page count. Obviously, you shouldn't write 200-300 page scripts. But that's not the point.

            If you obsess about getting the exact number of pages you need, then you will obsess about story and character. But if you obsess about page count, there is an inherent danger that you are less obsessive about story and character.

            It's the same reason why you shouldn't obsess about structure, and having certain story beats on certain pages. If you do that, you are not obsessing about story and character.

            You should let the script unfold naturally. THIS should be primary obsession.

            It's smart to have a *reasonable* page count. But if your script is longer than average, over 110 pages, and it's a real *page-turner*, then there is really no problem. Same with shorter scripts.

            If a rep isn't willing to take in a 111-page script that is great, then he sounds like a bad rep. There are a lot of bad reps - Most reps are less than good - that will fail to get you work. Better to have that great script with a genuinely good rep that understands its value. Now, if you have a 1st class rep on a proper agency who represents big clients, then I would write a script at the maximum length of 110 pages, if he demands so. Obviously. But if he is someone who doesn't really know what he is doing, maybe not worth it.

            More pages doesn't mean more money. You could claim that it means this on average, but even then it's a really big stretch. It all depends on what you have to film. A 90-minute film with extensive action/VFX set pieces is obviously going to be much more expensive than a 150-minute film with two actors talking. Even in the same genre your 120-page script can be much, much cheaper than somebody else's 90-page script.
            Your post is great -- I mostly agree. Aliens is a great script on it's own -- however -- no matter what you do it is a sequel to a hit movie. It's much easier to get except by part 2 of something great. No way to know how it reads w/o that knowledge -- also I assume you read aliens the script AFTER you saw one of my favorite movies of all time -- so it's impossible to judge for sure. A spec on it's own is a whole different thing. And not from a guy making 2 of the best movies of all time -- just you on your couch.

            Also Aliens spec I found is 105 pages https://nofilmschool.com/Download-aliens-script-pdf... I heard it called 120 pages on another site... you remembered 146.... hmm...

            My first draft of current spec was 150 pages. I did not worry about page length only story. But now as I rewrite -- I obviously do. So don't worry about page count -- but when you're rewriting it -- how can you not? Also that's the job. John August just had a post about how he has to sometimes take 3 scenes and make it work in one scene -- that's the job. We aren't writing novels with more latitude...

            110 is goal. I assumed 112 would be fine if you did the job right -- but in general -- a comedy spec over 104 pages is like -- get it over already. So you may be cutting 8 pages of good stuff -- but it may help overall. Sometimes you have to kill your darlings. So many pros have said get it under 110...

            Anyway -- let's get real. How many specs have you gone out with over 110 pages? Or queried? Not attacking you -- but all this advice is great -- but mine is coming from real life experience -- and I want to know if others are doing the same...

            If you got signed off a 125 page script -- then maybe that's what your POV is different. Mine is 110 or less...

            I just threw money line in -- because that's how Hollywood thinks. And I didn't even mean cost of movie -- I meant our 90 minute movie can play more often in a movie theater than our 160 min movie.... it all adds up. But yes in general a longer script = more money... the amount of money spent on one day of shooting a real movie is huge no matter the genre.

            Anyway I don't care about the money part. I only care about making sure writers working on specs understand that 110 or less is the goal...

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: What do you think about?

              I'd encourage everyone to watch the Russos podcast with Hamill where they discuss Empire. Now obviously they aren't discussing page count in aggregate because they don't have to worry about that. But they explicitly state that for all their stories, they use a very specific template for structure whereby they are hitting very specific beats on very specific pages. Now I'm conflating two different "page- things here a bit, but I think it holds true.

              For me, being obsessed with what page something happens on is critical. As I have become more experienced I can more easily eyeball my stories and intuitively know what page something will land on because I know, at minimum, every sequence in my story before I start writing. I don't know how it will be executed necessarily but I know what each story beat needs to accomplish. Most often I have an idea down to the scene level. For me, there is no substitute for knowing my story down to the page level. It just makes things that much easier.

              And if you're writing for TV, how are you not obsessed with where things happen and final page count?

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              • #37
                Re: What do you think about?

                Originally posted by Satriales View Post
                For me, there is no substitute for knowing my story down to the page level. It just makes things that much easier.

                And if you’re writing for TV, how are you not obsessed with where things happen and final page count?
                “Amen!” to this.
                “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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                • #38
                  Re: What do you think about?

                  Tiger you agreed with both posts one arguing don't worry about page count and second said get beats down to specific pages. Did I miss something?

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                  • #39
                    Re: What do you think about?

                    Originally posted by Bono View Post
                    Tiger you agreed with both posts one arguing don’t worry about page count and second said get beats down to specific pages. Did I miss something?
                    Yes, you missed something!

                    1. Don’t worry about page count when writing out your first draft of a feature script. Final drafts(s), yes. Then, as you say, try to rewrite to make it 110 pages or fewer; or as I like to say, write however many pages are necessary to tell the story, or no more than 120 pages, whichever comes first. Page-count has come to symbolize craft skills—if over a certain amount, you’re out; if under a certain amount, well... maybe, but probably there’s something missing. Pages and beats do not have to hit specific marks because there are no time constraints for a feature film.

                    2. Get beats down to specific pages when writing for television, whether half-hour or one-hour; at some point, commercials enter those pictures and need to be at regular intervals. IMO, this makes any television show almost predictable, but there you have it; it’s television, designed to fill a time slot and garner viewers for advertising (usually). Beats and pages have to hit marks because there are time constraints on a TV show.
                    Last edited by Clint Hill; 07-02-2020, 08:00 PM.
                    “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: What do you think about?

                      I don't much see the logic in not being a page count fascist in TV and not features. I know what the response will be as it pertains to the latter - "it's flexible! It matters less!- Ok. Maybe. But I think the craft of developing the story is still the, relatively, the same. And personally, I'd have a hard time not having a beat by beat story mapped out.

                      Curious how granular others are. When I do my outline/treatment/scriptment which generally run 17-20 pages I'm marking what page each scene/sequence ends on.

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                      • #41
                        Re: What do you think about?

                        TV and Features same thing. Certain page count needed.

                        TV actually may be MORE FLEXIBLE now because of streaming places and HBO of the world with more shows w/o commeircals...

                        Anyway -- I had a 150 page draft at one point -- I just got it to 110 pages and I can barely remember what 35 of the pages were that were cut... there's so much fat. Point is, most of it is just over written scenes that go on to long, reptiviing yourself when you don't realize it or having 3 endings to a scene like it's LOTR... You're not actually losing story -- in fact -- you're just making it more clear to the reader...

                        Watch any Apatow Film -- all of them are at least 30 minutes too long. Getting to indulge didn't make his films better. In fact, it probably made a lot of them worse.

                        If President Lincoln can deliver the 272 word Gettysburg Address we can surely deliver a 110 page spec.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: What do you think about?

                          Originally posted by Satriales View Post
                          I don’t much see the logic in not being a page count fascist in TV and not features. I know what the response will be as it pertains to the latter - “it’s flexible! It matters less!” Ok. Maybe. But I think the craft of developing the story is still the, relatively, the same. And personally, I’d have a hard time not having a beat by beat story mapped out.

                          Curious how granular others are. When I do my outline/treatment/scriptment which generally run 17-20 pages I’m marking what page each scene/sequence ends on.
                          Forcing a plot point or act break in a feature to happen on a specific page affects the story for me. I aim for a range rather than a specific page number.

                          Not saying your way is wrong, just each writer will have a different approach.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: What do you think about?

                            I don't think length should even be on the list of considerations at the get go. The inciting incident doesn't have to happen on page 15, it has to happen after a series of events take place in your story. There needs to be a strong reason why these events precede the inciting incident but as soon as they are done the i.i. plays out. The question is what do you need to establish before yours happens?

                            The opening few scenes of the script usually establish setting, build character - specifically attaching the reader to the hero's POV. "I stick my neck out for no one." is a famous example of this from Casablanca, what does he do in the end? The reader has to understand the hero's POV/Situation - even if they don't agree with it - they need to understand why the hero would hold such POV.

                            There's two great movies that have the inciting incident at the end of Act 1, which be around page 25 - 30. Back To The Future and Rocky. There is no impactful event in BTTF until Marty goes back in time which serves both as i.i and act climax. In Rocky there is no impactful moment until Rocky is offered the chance to fight the champion Apollo Creed. These events both take place after we are 20 - 25 min into the movie.

                            But people are going to do what has showed them results in the past. If you are a page counter and you've been able to pump out three scripts per year with each one getting better. then they are going to stick with what works.

                            I was watching a video the other day about this very thing. There's two types of writers. There's architects and gardeners. Architects need to plot and plan in order to tell their stories before the writing starts. Gardeners start usually with an interesting character and no real plan and they just let the character tell them the story.

                            I think there's pros and cons of both.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: What do you think about?

                              Originally posted by Anagram View Post
                              Forcing a plot point or act break in a feature to happen on a specific page affects the story for me. I aim for a range rather than a specific page number.

                              Not saying your way is wrong, just each writer will have a different approach.
                              I don't try to back into the page number. Frequently it's off by a couple. Sometimes more. But with each script I think I get better at eyeballing where it will land in the outline phase.

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