Archetype vs stereotype

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  • Archetype vs stereotype

    It's always been a question in storytelling for me, what is the difference between an archetype and stereotype?

    In the visual medium of screenwriting, it seems like the differences are more pronounced. In the movie Jaws, Quint, the old sea captain looks exactly like he should based on the dialogue and his dialogue is exactly what it should be based on his look.
    Han Solo is just another swashbuckling space pirate out to save the princess.

    In what ways can an artist make an archetype out of a stereotype? ... or vice versa?

  • #2
    Re: Archetype vs stereotype

    An archetype is a writer typing copy on a 1930s Halde-Norden No. 3 typewriter in the hold of a wooden ship full of animals.

    A stereotype is a pair of identical twin writers—the result of Dr. Josef Mengele experiments, one on the left side of the room, the other on the right side of the room—telepathically “linked” to one another while simultaneously typing the same copy on a pair of Groma Type N typewriters.

    Neil Gaiman answers your archetype versus stereotype question here: “Writing 101: The 12 Literary Archetypes” (choose “continue reading the article”)
    Last edited by Clint Hill; 05-17-2020, 11:16 AM.
    “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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    • #3
      Re: Archetype vs stereotype

      Originally posted by Novelist View Post
      In what ways can an artist make an archetype out of a stereotype? ... or vice versa?
      It's vice versa - stereotypes are borne of archetypes.
      M.A.G.A.

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      • #4
        Re: Archetype vs stereotype

        Originally posted by Novelist View Post
        In the movie Jaws, Quint, the old sea captain looks exactly like he should based on the dialogue and his dialogue is exactly what it should be based on his look.
        Does he, though? I'm sure you'd think he looks as you expect if he was bearded and stout like Ahab, or if he had a patch over an eye and missing teeth like a 17th century pirate, or was simply Gunnery Sergeant Foley - yet all three are highly disparate to one another.

        Quint is simply a straight-talking, world-weary, manual labourer who works amongst the elements. So it's no wonder he's got rough hands, practical, smeared clothes, and a lack of airs and graces.



        Han Solo is just another swashbuckling space pirate out to save the princess
        Except he isn't. How many swashbuckling space pirates were there before him? None. Not even in sci-fi's 50s heyday where the 'lady rescuers' were clean-cut and virtuous to the point of pomposity. Han was anything but swashbuckling and he certainly wasn't out to save a princess. Han was a self-centred, amoral, wise-ass - orientated only by money (the easier, the better). He was also cool-as-fuck which made him an anti-hero and so again, is neither stereotypical or archetypal of 'space pirates'. I mean, he's not even a pirate, he's a smuggler.

        The answer to your question about creating character is to avoid both stereotypes and archetypes and just create characters that feel original and real - and you will achieve this by mixing creative flair with a solid understanding of people. Riggs, Quint, Neo, Mayo, The Dude, Ryder, Snake, Venkman - all new and unique - in a world of forbears and peers - yet simultaneously felt relatable, recognisable and real.
        Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 05-14-2020, 03:36 PM.
        M.A.G.A.

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        • #5
          Re: Archetype vs stereotype

          Think of archetypes as characters that wear a mask to perform a story function. One character can become various archetypes within a single story. For example, the MENTOR (a guide, confidant, advisor) might also be a HERALD who delivers an important message in the story. The Mentor can don the mask of the TRICKSTER who, perhaps, betrays, misleads, or TRICKS, our main character-- think LOKI in the malicious form and Dr. Strange in the ally form.

          Archetypes serve a dramatic function to storytelling. They have purpose. If you are familiar with Joseph Campbell's writing and Christopher Vogler, "The Writer's Journey" you will be familiar with archetypes. And, actually, you probably write archetypes without even knowing you're doing it, that's how universal they are. You don't have to PLAN to write archetypes, but understanding their function can help you better utilize your characters to deliver specific functions to your narrative.

          The reason archetypes play an important role in dramatic writing is because they are universal to most people because they reflect characters throughout history. Think of ancient Greek theater where a performer would hold a mask over their face to identify for the audience which archetype the performer was playing.

          A Stereotype is a NEGATIVE representation of an actual group of people. Stereotypes cast broad-stroke, over-generalized, extreme simplifications of people. They are often offensive, insulting, cause injury and can degrade a person based on physical characteristics, religious beliefs, race, creed, preferences, intelligence, sexual orientation and gender.

          Stereotyping is wrong.

          Archetypes and Stereotypes are not at all similar.
          Last edited by finalact4; 05-14-2020, 05:51 PM.
          "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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          • #6
            Re: Archetype vs stereotype

            Originally posted by Novelist View Post
            It's always been a question in storytelling for me, what is the difference between an archetype and stereotype?

            In the visual medium of screenwriting, it seems like the differences are more pronounced. In the movie Jaws, Quint, the old sea captain looks exactly like he should based on the dialogue and his dialogue is exactly what it should be based on his look.
            Han Solo is just another swashbuckling space pirate out to save the princess.

            In what ways can an artist make an archetype out of a stereotype? ... or vice versa?
            Quint's character, dialogue and behavior is based on WHO he is and WHAT he does.

            The same for Han Solo, but Han is not a pirate. Pirates overtake, pillage, and plunder other's property often murdering the owners for sport. A pirate is not a stereotype. Their characteristics are based on the lifestyle they live.

            Solo is a self-centered, opportunistic, rebel smuggler who plays the middle carefully, who doesn't want to choose sides. .

            He trades in supply and demand of illegal products. Pirate and smuggler are not the same character, nor do they have the same function. WHO he is, is a function of WHAT he does. WHAT he believes in and WHAT he values is revealed by the choices he makes under pressure. These are the things that make him a dimensional character.

            Writing stereotypes is a cheaters way to write flat characters that lack depth and dimensionality.

            As a writer, you should NOT use stereotypes.
            "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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            • #7
              Re: Archetype vs stereotype

              It's so interesting that the idea of negative stereotypes and Captain Ahab came up in this discussion. I have a business acquaintance that is a foul-tempered, nasty, boat captain. He makes people call him 'Captain' even when they're on land. When he's not around, everyone calls him 'Ahab.'

              But I think the pejorative use of 'Ahab' perhaps isn't so much about a negative stereotype as an archetype that has become iconic.

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              • #8
                Re: Archetype vs stereotype

                Stereotypes can be negative but not necessarily so. Stereotypes are simply widely held - and justifiably so - representations of demographics due to the prevalence of common traits. Where they become negative is when you adhere only to these plug 'n' play angles and forget the person, the character, underneath. Even in a group of people who all listen to the same music, dress the same, and espouse the same beliefs, they are all individuals with their own drives, insecurities, passions, tastes and - even - disagreement with the majority but just choose to stay quiet.
                M.A.G.A.

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                • #9
                  Re: Archetype vs stereotype

                  creating that Iconic character has mostly to do with having a voice and being an authority on that genre. It's obviously dealers choice in that you're inventing a fictional narrative and there are infinite possibilities...

                  you also have examples of the protagonist's catalyst being this Archetype/Stereotype, both would be incorrect. For example, Ben Kenobi is the mentor and not the protagonist of Starwars. And the Archetype/Protag would refer to the protagonist of a story

                  it does get confusing as a lot of writing gurus tend to create a rule book or structure diagram, that only fits the movies they discuss. So when you try and apply it to another movie you don't understand the context as to why they made choices for characters and structure.
                  Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Archetype vs stereotype

                    Originally posted by Julysses View Post
                    it does get confusing as a lot of writing gurus tend to create a rule book or structure diagram, that only fits the movies they discuss. So when you try and apply it to another movie you don't understand the context as to why they made choices for characters and structure.
                    100%

                    I enjoy watching the gurus twist and squirm when asked about PULP FICTION, THE ENGLISH PATIENT, BABEL and other non-linear films. Try applying Save The Cat to SLACKER. When confronted with non-linear or non-traditional films, gurus and their acolytes will fall back on "that's the exception that proves the rule." Except it isn't.

                    The exceptions prove that there are no rules.

                    .
                    Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.

                    -Steve Trautmann
                    3rd & Fairfax: The WGAW Podcast

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                    • #11
                      Re: Archetype vs stereotype

                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Julysses

                      “it does get confusing as a lot of writing gurus tend to create a rule book or structure diagram, that only fits the movies they discuss. So when you try and apply it to another movie you don't understand the context as to why they made choices for characters and structure.”

                      Originally posted by KitchonaSteve View Post
                      100%

                      I enjoy watching the gurus twist and squirm when asked about PULP FICTION, THE ENGLISH PATIENT, BABEL and other non-linear films. Try applying Save The Cat to SLACKER. When confronted with non-linear or non-traditional films, gurus and their acolytes will fall back on "that's the exception that proves the rule." Except it isn't.

                      The exceptions prove that there are no rules.
                      For writing a screenplay, a good guideline or rule of thumb, but not a rule, is “Don’t be boring.”

                      I never recommend the book Save the Cat! for some of the reasons mentioned above. Other reasons are my own, but for decorum’s sake are much less kind and unprintable here.
                      “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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                      • #12
                        Re: Archetype vs stereotype

                        Originally posted by KitchonaSteve View Post

                        I enjoy watching the gurus twist and squirm when asked about PULP FICTION, THE ENGLISH PATIENT, BABEL and other non-linear films. Try applying Save The Cat to SLACKER. When confronted with non-linear or non-traditional films, gurus and their acolytes will fall back on "that's the exception that proves the rule." Except it isn't.

                        The exceptions prove that there are no rules.
                        "rules"?

                        KitchonaSteve, if you felt this way, why didn't you mention it in my Three Act Structure (Part 2) thread? I'm gonna repost your statement in the (Part 2) structure thread and address what you've said there.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Archetype vs stereotype

                          Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                          "rules"?

                          KitchonaSteve, if you felt this way, why didn't you mention it in my Three Act Structure (Part 2) thread? I'm gonna repost your statement in the (Part 2) structure thread and address what you've said there.
                          I've written and read enough about the 3-Act structure, especially on DD.
                          Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.

                          -Steve Trautmann
                          3rd & Fairfax: The WGAW Podcast

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Archetype vs stereotype

                            Originally posted by KitchonaSteve View Post
                            100%

                            I enjoy watching the gurus twist and squirm when asked about PULP FICTION, THE ENGLISH PATIENT, BABEL and other non-linear films. Try applying Save The Cat to SLACKER. When confronted with non-linear or non-traditional films, gurus and their acolytes will fall back on "that's the exception that proves the rule." Except it isn't.

                            The exceptions prove that there are no rules.

                            .
                            Agreed. There are no rules.

                            I've enjoyed many of the discussions that Michael Hague and Christopher Vogler have on structure, and the inner and the outer journey. They both admit that structure paradigms are not absolute and that they are not without exception, only that, by and large, films follow these "general guidelines."

                            Hague says that even a films like Pulp fiction and Being John Malcovich follow similar turning points at specific times/percentages.

                            What I appreciate with those two consultants, is that structure can be simplified to a high level or drilled down into the story as suits the writer's needs.

                            I work story this way. I start with big turning points, then move in to fill in between and add further and further detail, beats and turns. I will create 5 point plot turns for each character in ensembles cast stories before weaving them together into one linear plot. Sort of similar to the grid that JK uses for her novels. It can allow for great story depth.

                            A few characters may not have all 5 plot points and some may share a plot point but hit at a different time for one of the characters. Plot point one for Character C might be plot point three for Character A, for example.

                            Considering structure before you start, is an exercise that can solidify and clarify your story before you begin the big work. It provides a guide to keep your story focused.

                            Structure isn't difficult. Most of us do it without thinking. When I need to be reminded of it, it's to keep the story on the spine and restrain myself from allowing it to be detailed or sidelined by diverging extraneous scenes for a love, or indulgence, of unnecessary subplots.

                            Structure is there to guide and support the writer. It is not there to infringe or restrict the creative endeavor. A confident writer is not concerned with page counts because the structure that works best for their story is usually, and not without exception ☺, already determined during the outlining process.

                            Structure is a part of every story, intended or not. Whether it fits a paradigm, isn't the point. Do most "Hollywood" films follow traditional structure? Sure.

                            Understanding structure is there to assist the writer, not hinder them.

                            No one goes around after seeing a film saying, "wasn't that structure amazing?"

                            They talk about the story. About the journey and whether it was a fulfilling, exciting and meaningful journey to take with a memorable character with which we are able to identify.

                            My only advice is, don't worry about it so much.
                            "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                            • #15
                              Re: Archetype vs stereotype

                              I always love how around here people can argue "there are no rules" and at the same time police where things are posted. Why aren't you following the forum rules??? It's just fun irony for me.

                              As always you first need to learn how to drive a car to pass your test and get your license. But you don't really become a good driver (hopefully) until years later after you've done it a ton. And as you learn for real how to drive you see the difference between "rules" of the road vs "rules of life."

                              Rule -- Yellow light -- slow down

                              Real life rule -- Yellow Light -- if you have to get your kids to school on time speed up and take the turn going as fast as you can go w/o tipping over.

                              So apply that logic to screenwriting. First you need to learn a little bit about it but then you realize the easy part is learning what is it and how most people do it. The hard part is YOU learning how to do it right.

                              Some people become great drivers, some just good and some are terrible drivers who ride the brake the whole trip.

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