Black List Score Patterns

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  • Re: Black List Score Patterns

    Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
    Agree completely. Again, I wasn't making a criticism about anyone or anything. I was merely pointing out a fact that would affect someone's passionately-made argument. Was bored at the time and decided to weigh in, but maybe next time I'll just stay out of it.
    By all means weigh in.
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • Re: Black List Score Patterns

      Somewhat related, and to no one in particular, I had an experience with an ad agency writer I used to work with who gamed the system (stealing ideas from published work and just tweaking it a little) and managed to hide the fact he was mediocre and couldn't come up with an original concept on his own.

      It lasted about two years before he was let go. When he went job hunting he continued to game the system because I found out from a ad industry headhunter for creatives this guy had my work in his portfolio and was presenting it as his own. Including work for which I won Addy Awards. Dumb move. The headhunter checked the awards listing and called to give me a heads up. He also blackballed this writer with every headhunter in his industry, nationwide.

      Unable to get a staff job, the guy started freelancing in the same city in which I was freelancing ( I had resigned my staff job by this time). Now we were competing for the same gigs. With virtually the same portfolio. Only I make sure I have my Addy Awards in my portfolio with my name on them.

      Did he fool a couple of people and get gigs with my work samples? Yep. But one of those people I later worked for said the guy so badly dropped the ball on a big project, he started badmouthing him around town to save other people the grief. After six months freelancing, the writer had to take a job selling insurance and that's the last I heard of him in ad circles.

      The moral of the story -- if a writer sucks, he/she sucks and gaming the system will not change this reality.
      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

      Comment


      • Re: Black List Score Patterns

        Originally posted by emily blake View Post
        Look, having a rep means nothing - NOTHING - unless you are willing to work very very hard and deal with a ton of rejection. Nobody is going to hand you anything, even if a manager or agent is pushing your work. You guys seem to think that suddenly you get representation and BAM! You're in! You've made it!

        Know what a rep gets you? A lot he help and a lot of meetings. It does NOT get you a career. It just helps you hustle a more efficiently.

        With or without a rep, you have to keep hustling. And you honestly have ZERO clue as to why someone with a rep might have posted a script, or even posted without listing who their rep is. They have reasons. You DO NOT KNOW their reasons. All you know is that, just like you, they're trying to hustle for work.

        Are some of their managers giving high ratings to boost the signal? I dunno. Maybe. I doubt it's happening as much as you seem to think.

        But so what? Even if it is, that's irrelevant. The reps are already putting the work in front of people. They're not the ones making the decision about what to buy - producers are. Studio executives are.

        So if you want your work to be read, work on that logline. If you want your work to be loved, work on perfecting it. Stop this incessant obsessing over what everyone else is doing. Stop making excuses for why nobody is reading your work. There is one person in control of your destiny as a screenwriter - YOU.

        Your script isn't getting traction? Maybe it's not ready. Go write another one and try again. Or enter it into a contest. Or query some more. But don't waste your time trying to figure out how the other guy is gaming the system. If he is, hell, good for him. He's doing what it takes. You're not.
        Emily, while I agree with pretty much everything you said here, I don't think anyone was making excuses for not getting reads or even discussing his or her script not getting traction. We were discussing a ratings trend that--if it continues or becomes more pervasive--might negatively impact the reputation of the Black List and impact it's long-term viability as a platform. No one brought his or her own script into the discussion.

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        • Re: Black List Score Patterns

          I can't speak on the "gaming of the system" issue directly, if there is one - but in regards to previous comments and concerns about "that" effecting the reputation of the accuracy of the scores on the Blacklist 3.0 - it seems to me that industry pros looking for material on the Blacklist 3.0 would be savvy enough to judge the accuracy of the scores based only on the BL reader scores, not on some other anonymous scores. So, for example, if two BL readers give a script scores of 5 and 6, and some other unknown entity gives it a 10, and the industry pro looking for scripts reads the script and thinks it's only a 5, the so called "gaming of the system" still does not effect the reputation of the accuracy of the Blacklist 3.0 - it would enhance it - the industry pro would agree with the BL readers. I'm assuming they could parse the source of the scores. But BL can't be held responsible for any scores but those of their own readers. Now if the industry pro thought the script was a 10 - that's a whole other kettle of fish.
          "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

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          • Re: Black List Score Patterns

            As I write this, the top-rated Black List script, which is from a repped writer, has only two scores. Both scores are 10s. As there are no visible reviews, it's very likely that these are non-reader scores.

            Ooooookkkkaaaaayyyyyyyy...

            Comment


            • Re: Black List Score Patterns

              Originally posted by MrZero View Post
              As I write this, the top-rated Black List script, which is from a repped writer, has only two scores. Both scores are 10s. As there are no visible reviews, it's very likely that these are non-reader scores.

              Ooooookkkkaaaaayyyyyyyy...
              And inevitably, whatever attention it receives from being so will result in folks downloading it, reading it, and rating it based on their own opinions, which will mean that it will regress to whatever position it merits based on more data.

              This is an unfortunate reality of dealing with relatively small data sets. There will be outliers who benefit, but that benefit will be short lived.

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              • Re: Black List Score Patterns

                I guess that's a reasonable answer.

                Comment


                • Re: Black List Score Patterns

                  Originally posted by MrZero View Post
                  As I write this, the top-rated Black List script, which is from a repped writer, has only two scores. Both scores are 10s. As there are no visible reviews, it's very likely that these are non-reader scores.

                  Ooooookkkkaaaaayyyyyyyy...
                  Hey MrZero,

                  That's actually my script. And yes, I'm repped. No, I'm not gaming the system.

                  I got repped off query letters I sent out late last year. I was literally as unknown as unknowns can be before getting repped and managers got me meetings with a bunch of great people--based off these people reading/liking the script.

                  I recently put the script up on the BL because I wanted to be considered for the great opportunities/partnerships they got going (Disney, Warner Bros., etc).

                  I was going to get paid ratings, but BL support said having just industry members rate your scripts would be enough to be considered for the short lists--BUT, the more ratings the better.

                  So I sent out a few emails to the execs, producers, industry people I've met in meetings the past few months.

                  So far 2 have responded back and rated the script. A few others responded saying they don't have a BL membership, so they couldn't rate it on the website. I'm hoping I'll have a few more ratings come in soon.

                  Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
                  And inevitably, whatever attention it receives from being so will result in folks downloading it, reading it, and rating it based on their own opinions, which will mean that it will regress to whatever position it merits based on more data.

                  This is an unfortunate reality of dealing with relatively small data sets. There will be outliers who benefit, but that benefit will be short lived.
                  Yep, completely agree. And I'm sure there will be some people who download it, who subjectively won't respond to it as well as some other people in the industry have. And I'm sure there will be some who download it who may respond very well to it.

                  And I get that.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Black List Score Patterns

                    Originally posted by IGetsBuckets View Post
                    So I sent out a few emails to the execs, producers, industry people I've met in meetings the past few months.

                    So far 2 have responded back and rated the script. A few others responded saying they don't have a BL membership, so they couldn't rate it on the website. I'm hoping I'll have a few more ratings come in soon.
                    I appreciate your willingness to set the record straight. Yeah, I'd say that's a legitimate way to get scores. I wouldn't call that "gaming" the system, and I'm not accusing you of mischief. Given that you made the Hit List (with 12 votes), it looks like you have more than a few genuine fans out there.

                    It's just that the two 10s looked odd, especially when you consider that the #2 script has only two 10s out of 21 total scores and the #3 script has one 10 out of 22 total scores. But as Franklin has pointed out, you can get results like this when there's a limited amount of data. If more scores roll in, you'll probably get that distinctive "bell curve" distribution.

                    Best of luck!

                    Comment


                    • Re: Black List Score Patterns

                      Originally posted by MrZero View Post
                      I appreciate your willingness to set the record straight. Yeah, I'd say that's a legitimate way to get scores. I wouldn't call that "gaming" the system, and I'm not accusing you of mischief. Given that you made the Hit List (with 12 votes), it looks like you have more than a few genuine fans out there.

                      It's just that the two 10s looked odd, especially when you consider that the #2 script has only two 10s out of 21 total scores and the #3 script has one 10 out of 22 total scores. But as Franklin has pointed out, you can get results like this when there's a limited amount of data. If more scores roll in, you'll probably get that distinctive "bell curve" distribution.

                      Best of luck!
                      No problem man. Thanks for the good wishes!

                      And making the Hit List was a big surprise. Managers sent the script out to a few people late Nov/early Dec. I thought it'd be too late to be in consideration for either of the 2013 "lists," but was VERY fortunate people read it and liked it enough to send in some votes for the Hit List. I think it was too late for the BL, but hopefully it'll have a chance for the 2014 list.

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                      • Re: Black List Score Patterns

                        Originally posted by IGetsBuckets View Post
                        I was going to get paid ratings, but BL support said having just industry members rate your scripts would be enough to be considered for the short lists--BUT, the more ratings the better.

                        So I sent out a few emails to the execs, producers, industry people I've met in meetings the past few months.

                        So far 2 have responded back and rated the script. A few others responded saying they don't have a BL membership, so they couldn't rate it on the website. I'm hoping I'll have a few more ratings come in soon.
                        This may not be "gaming the system" but it does feel a bit "crony-ish." Getting your industry pals (ones 98% of BL writers could only dream of having) give your script two 10's in two total ratings -- something American Beauty could only achieve.

                        In short, you're bypassing the BL readers (an objective scoring system) in favor of your industry contacts (a subjective scoring system). It may not be against BL policy, but it sure is bloody unfair to the rest of us.

                        If you really believe your script is a winner, I'd pay for 2 BL reads to get some objective eyes on the material. After all, if you do have the next American Beauty, what is there to be afraid of?
                        I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Black List Score Patterns

                          Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
                          This may not be "gaming the system" but it does feel a bit "crony-ish." Getting your industry pals (ones 98% of BL writers could only dream of having) give your script two 10's in two total ratings -- something American Beauty could only achieve.

                          In short, you're bypassing the BL readers (an objective scoring system) in favor of your industry contacts (a subjective scoring system). It may not be against BL policy, but it sure is bloody unfair to the rest of us.

                          If you really believe your script is a winner, I'd pay for 2 BL reads to get some objective eyes on the material. After all, if you do have the next American Beauty, what is there to be afraid of?
                          Black List reader scores, like every evaluation of any work of art, are subjective as well.

                          I think it's important to remember that the Black List is not to meant to exist only as a way for unrepresented writers to make their work available to the industry, it's meant to exist as a comprehensive database of all screenplays that anyone could reasonably want to produce, direct, star in, finance, represent, etc.

                          Some of those scripts will be listed without being hosted (all WGA members can list their scripts free of charge). Others will be hosted.

                          Ratings by industry professionals may well be non-representative in small data sets, but again, as more people download the script, it will regress to a mean that is more appropriate to the quality of the work.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Black List Score Patterns

                            Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
                            This may not be "gaming the system" but it does feel a bit "crony-ish." Getting your industry pals (ones 98% of BL writers could only dream of having) give your script two 10's in two total ratings -- something American Beauty could only achieve.

                            In short, you're bypassing the BL readers (an objective scoring system) in favor of your industry contacts (a subjective scoring system). It may not be against BL policy, but it sure is bloody unfair to the rest of us.

                            If you really believe your script is a winner, I'd pay for 2 BL reads to get some objective eyes on the material. After all, if you do have the next American Beauty, what is there to be afraid of?
                            Don't want to derail the thread, but I just wanted to clarify a few things.

                            I didn't get any "industry pals" to "give me" a score. I actually don't have any "industry pals" or "cronies." Far from it . At the moment, I don't even live in LA. The only industry professionals I've been fortunate enough to have a meeting with, have come from those people reading my script and responding well to it. That's where those scores came from.

                            I may be repped, but nobody hands you a career just because you're repped. I still work full-time. Have a day job. Write at night. I'm still struggling, fighting, and working 24/7 to try and succeed in this industry--just as much as anyone else pursuing this dream.

                            So far in my screenwriting career, I've made a grand total of $0. The script that is rated well on the BL was never taken out as a spec to sell, because the script is a very personal story that I'm attached to direct. I just finished a new spec that I'm hoping to sell--but spec sales are a haphazard beast, so you never know what's gonna happen there.

                            I put my script on the BL after someone recently gave me a heads-up that the BL website had a couple GREAT opportunities that I still qualified for, since I was still below the earnings threshold. I was going to buy paid reads, until I was informed that industry ratings would be enough to be considered. Since I'm short on money, don't need the coverage, and don't really need the potential email blast, I figured there would be some industry professionals who liked my script that had a BL membership. I didn't campaign for a "10." I simply gave a few people who had read the script in the past a heads-up that I was hosting it on the site. That's it.

                            I know some people have tweeted out their BL script links and sent mass emails to industry contacts to get ratings (neither of which I did), but there's nothing wrong with that. If people can get their script rated on the BL from industry members who have previously read their script, that's their right. I will always be in favor of people doing everything they can to try and move up from aspiring to professional screenwriter. It's a f*cking brutal industry to try to break into, so I will never fault people for pursuing every opportunity and working as hard as possible to succeed.

                            If I host the script on the BL website for a long duration of time, I'm sure there will be some industry professionals that have never read it before who download it and don't rate it as high as it's been rated so far. And I hope that some new readers download it and do rate it as high as it's rated now. That's the subjective nature of this business. And I'm good with that .

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                            • Re: Black List Score Patterns

                              Originally posted by IGetsBuckets View Post
                              Don't want to derail the thread, but I just wanted to clarify a few things.

                              I didn't get any "industry pals" to "give me" a score. I actually don't have any "industry pals" or "cronies." Far from it . At the moment, I don't even live in LA. The only industry professionals I've been fortunate enough to have a meeting with, have come from those people reading my script and responding well to it. That's where those scores came from.

                              I may be repped, but nobody hands you a career just because you're repped. I still work full-time. Have a day job. Write at night. I'm still struggling, fighting, and working 24/7 to try and succeed in this industry--just as much as anyone else pursuing this dream.

                              So far in my screenwriting career, I've made a grand total of $0. The script that is rated well on the BL was never taken out as a spec to sell, because the script is a very personal story that I'm attached to direct. I just finished a new spec that I'm hoping to sell--but spec sales are a haphazard beast, so you never know what's gonna happen there.

                              I put my script on the BL after someone recently gave me a heads-up that the BL website had a couple GREAT opportunities that I still qualified for, since I was still below the earnings threshold. I was going to buy paid reads, until I was informed that industry ratings would be enough to be considered. Since I'm short on money, don't need the coverage, and don't really need the potential email blast, I figured there would be some industry professionals who liked my script that had a BL membership. I didn't campaign for a "10." I simply gave a few people who had read the script in the past a heads-up that I was hosting it on the site. That's it.

                              I know some people have tweeted out their BL script links and sent mass emails to industry contacts to get ratings (neither of which I did), but there's nothing wrong with that. If people can get their script rated on the BL from industry members who have previously read their script, that's their right. I will always be in favor of people doing everything they can to try and move up from aspiring to professional screenwriter. It's a f*cking brutal industry to try to break into, so I will never fault people for pursuing every opportunity and working as hard as possible to succeed.

                              If I host the script on the BL website for a long duration of time, I'm sure there will be some industry professionals that have never read it before who download it and don't rate it as high as it's been rated so far. And I hope that some new readers download it and do rate it as high as it's rated now. That's the subjective nature of this business. And I'm good with that .
                              Well said.

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                              • Re: Black List Score Patterns

                                IGetsBuckets is definitely working within the BL system and has done nothing wrong, but I think it's certainly a feature that's ripe for abuse. If I put a script up and asked ten producers/execs who love my work to give it a rating, those ten high scores would stick it at the top of the list for the foreseeable future.

                                Would the newer, "honest" ratings that came in drag it down? Of course. But it starts with an almost insurmountable lead - and while it's at the top of the charts, it's pushing down scripts with purely non solicited ratings and keeping them from getting attention.

                                If the top lists become populated with people who are already inside the system to some degree, purely because they're able to reach out for scores in a way outsiders can't, it defeats what makes the BL interesting, IMO. It becomes more like the legacy system at good colleges - when you have a disproportionate number of students who get in because of connections, it doesn't mean you can't get in by merit - but it sure makes it a hell of a lot harder.

                                And now that there are opportunities attached to the BL, there seems like even more reason for writers with contacts to come out of the gate with strong scores...

                                FWIW, I think at a very minimum, a reader should have to download a script from the BL and there should be some waiting period before they give it a rating, even if it's just a couple of hours. The extra step might discourage some people, and who knows - they might read it and give a more honest rating than an automatic high score for someone they like.

                                And full disclosure: I've had a friend ask me to check out a couple of their scripts on BL. I hadn't read them before, downloaded them, read them, and posted the scores. I didn't give them 10s, but I did give them high scores - I'm a big fan of my friend's writing, and thought the scripts were really strong. I have recommended this friend for jobs outside of the BL.

                                And another reason I don't like readers who don't download rating scripts - it can cut the other way. When I ran my experiment of posting an old spec anonymously, I had someone who didn't download it give it a 5 or 6. (Don't remember specifically.) Franklin checked into it, and the person was someone who claimed to have read it years ago, was certain that it was the same script (even though it had a different author name on it and a by design fairly generic logline), and remembered it well enough to rate it. Of course, because they didn't download it, there was no way they could have known whether or not it had been rewritten in the years since they'd seen it...

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