A good script vs. a sellable script

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  • #46
    Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

    Thanks so much for the input Juunit. I've found it useful. My main takeaway, being a relative newbie, is that if I have three ideas for writing screenplays, let's say, then I'd be best off choosing the idea that lends itself to traditional structure first.

    My other takeaway is I was right to enter the Nicholl and Austin contests this year for the first time as I'm assuming their first-line readers are a cut above what you'd find elsewhere in the industry.

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    • #47
      Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

      Originally posted by datahog View Post
      Thanks so much for the input Juunit. I've found it useful. My main takeaway, being a relative newbie, is that if I have three ideas for writing screenplays, let's say, then I'd be best off choosing the idea that lends itself to traditional structure first.

      My other takeaway is I was right to enter the Nicholl and Austin contests this year for the first time as I'm assuming their first-line readers are a cut above what you'd find elsewhere in the industry.
      I'd say you're ahead of the curve for the simple fact that you did the research to find out that Nicholl and Austin are the most respected competitions. As far as how they hire their first-line readers compared to other competitions, I don't really know. I know they get the best judges to determine the winners though.

      As for what to write next, I'd say it should still be something you're excited to write and hopefully something you can start off quickly to pull the reader in right away. Following structure is nice, but if the script doesn't come out good it won't really matter if you've written the penultimate example of screenplay structure.

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      • #48
        Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

        Shocker. A person on the bottom rung of the ladder writes a thousand words to convince everyone that they're super important.

        Get above assistant and then come back and tell us the secret to life.

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        • #49
          Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

          Originally posted by juunit View Post
          As I've said already, take the advice or leave it. It’s your choice.

          But I started this thread to give people a firsthand look at the other side of the process, something most people have zero experience with. I’m here trying to help people get through to that next step, not damage them. You're perfectly welcome to disagree, but just as you think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong.


          There is a very clear difference between a good script and a sellable script, hence the existence of The Blacklist; a list of the year’s best scripts that have not sold. A script can certainly be both of those things, but that’s the rarest form. More often it’s well done or it’s commercial. More often than that, it’s neither.

          You seem to be operating under the impression that writing a script which follows certain guidelines automatically makes it bad. I don't know how you reached that conclusion. In most cases of scripts that I’ve seen, they stand to be improved by implementing some of these guidelines.

          The three act structure has been tried and true since the days of Ancient Greece. Every screenwriting class and book tells writers to start scripts fast for a reason. A lot of the stuff that people will tell you is necessary for a good script is not. However, the stuff which continuously pops up from sources all over the map does so for good reason. Cliches and stereotypes are borne out of reality. And if you talk to any literary manager or agent, the one thing they are all likely to tell you that they’re looking for, is voice. Another cliche.

          I'd also say that the idea that the interns have no power is totally false. It's the entire point of this thread that they have an undeserved amount of power.
          It's difficult to respond in a way that will be helpful to others without perpetuating a debate about what I did or didn't say, which I'm not terribly interested in. But, I think that those who will do well are going to figure it out by themselves.

          If writers focus on trying to please the first line of defense by striving towards a sense of competence by making something "look" right, for that particular audience (assuming they otherwise can't recognize something with true potential) by checking boxes like "relatable protagonist" "standard structure", "make stuff happen early", they will be doing themselves a huge disservice. Competence should not be the ultimate goal--you have to do much, much, better than that. Powerful and distinctive story and character first and last--never forget that

          Interns only have the power of "No". That's their only real power. You don't need their "Yes", you need someone else's "Yes".

          This town is not full of stories of all the specs that were read by interns who championed them up the chain until they were bought. It is so rare that something like that would happen that you are better off doing everything you can to write something that is so powerful from the standpoint of your characters and their journeys that you will be able to get a rep, or get it directly into the hands of people who matter. 999 times out of 1000, the intern or assistant will just pass, because a., most scripts are ****, b. they themselves are swimming in a stream of recycled opinions and don't have the strength of their own and c., they are scared to look like idiots to their bosses, which is far more likely if they recommend than pass.

          Interns matter, assistants matter more--but they aren't the people that really matter, at least not now. They may become the people that matter, but right now they are more likely to be obstacle than ally.

          And don't anyone say it's not possible to skip those first few rungs, that's wrong. It just isn't easy.
          Last edited by Done Deal Pro; 07-02-2015, 06:06 AM. Reason: Fixed coding.

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          • #50
            Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

            Juunit, thanks for your posts and resulting interesting discussion.

            How important to you and other readers are voice and style in comparison to structure and other things that are the actual story?

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            • #51
              Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

              Originally posted by juunit View Post
              There is a very clear difference between a good script and a sellable script, hence the existence of The Blacklist; a list of the year's best scripts that have not sold. A script can certainly be both of those things, but that's the rarest form. More often it's well done or it's commercial. More often than that, it's neither.
              Actually, I think the Black List argues the exact opposite of what you're claiming it argue here.

              Because most of the scripts on the Black List get acquired. Heck, most of them are acquired by the time they're on the Black List.

              Most people do hate reading good writing. Or are you telling me that when you were in High School every one of your classmates enjoyed Shakespeare and Hemingway? It's the same as how most people hate watching truly good films. Paul Thomas Anderson is a certified cinema genius, but he is hardly setting box office records.
              This gets to the point - and shows that yes, I was right, you don't know what good writing is. You have a VERY NARROW definition of good writing. You think "good writing" means literature, so-called literary fiction, and/or films that take themselves very seriously.

              A lot of that stuff IS good writing. But you know what else is good writing? "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone." "The Hobbit," (the book, no comments about the movies). Dashiell Hammett and Ellmore Leonard. Isaac Asimov (at least a decent amount of the time). "Mad Max: Fury Road."

              Now, yeah, if you want to define "good writing" is this hyper-narrow way - "the stuff they made me read in high school, or stuff like it," then you're right. But the thing is, that's a stupid definition of good writing.

              Your point about Paul Thomas Anderson is also sort of mind-boggling. Yes, he's an extremely talented filmmaker. He's also somebody who is clearly not interested in courting the widest possible audience. You're arguing against a straw man here because nobody is arguing that "good writing, and only good writing, regardless of the subject matter, is what determines box office success."

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              • #52
                Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                Actually, I think the Black List argues the exact opposite of what you're claiming it argue here.

                Because most of the scripts on the Black List get acquired. Heck, most of them are acquired by the time they're on the Black List.
                Exactly--in fact, the Blacklist is not, as Juunit stated, the years best "unsold" scripts, it's the best "unproduced" scripts, and those are two very different things.
                Last edited by Done Deal Pro; 07-02-2015, 08:41 AM. Reason: Fixed coding.

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                • #53
                  Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                  Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                  Juunit, thanks for your posts and resulting interesting discussion.

                  How important to you and other readers are voice and style in comparison to structure and other things that are the actual story?
                  I can only speak for myself. Personally I find originality in things like voice and style much more important. A well structured unoriginal script isn't really worth anything. But readers are really looking for any excuse to pass on your script. So by ignoring structure or any of those other typical notes, you're just giving them ammo to write a negative review of your work.

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                  • #54
                    Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                    Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                    This gets to the point - and shows that yes, I was right, you don't know what good writing is. You have a VERY NARROW definition of good writing. You think "good writing" means literature, so-called literary fiction, and/or films that take themselves very seriously.
                    Ah, yes, I see now.

                    Good luck forging a successful writing career with that personality.

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                    • #55
                      Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                      When i read the OP i thought...hmm, young guy stating what he's seen. But that advice is not for me.
                      I have used slow and fast for openings and honestly it's whatever the story i'm telling dictates. Not interns. Not assistants. Not even me...the story.
                      Here's advice i liked from a Nicholl reader...posted not too long ago on their page-
                      Reader Comment Excerpt, as always drawn from a high-scoring 2015 entry:
                      "I really love a slow open, it shows a writer has confidence to take you on a journey without explaining too much too early. It always grabs my interest and hooks me immediately."

                      So...again....we live in a subjective industry.

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                      • #56
                        Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                        Originally posted by juunit View Post

                        Anyway, I'd just like to reiterate that I'm not saying these things are required for a good script. They are required for getting through the morass that is the development process though. It's a completely broken process, but it's not changing any time soon.
                        The OP says, hey, I know it's unfair, but heads up -- you might want to have recognizable act breaks if you want your material to resonate with an intern, and everyone goes nuts. It's offensive that an intern likes structure? It's offensive that an intern might want to have something interesting happen early? It's offensive that someone who works as a reader gave you their POV on how to combat intern wariness? WHILE also saying, you could take or leave this advice?

                        Come on.

                        IF you want your material to resonate with an intern -- so for those that are above being read by interns -- he's probably not talking to you anyway, right?

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                        • #57
                          Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                          Agree with figment. I'm not sure what the op said that is so polarising.

                          It seems like we're getting caught up in a discussion of what the subject title means, i.e. A good script vs a sellable script, when that is really just semantics. It's the content of his posts that are much more interesting.

                          I think he's basically contradicting the truism that good/great writing will always get noticed eventually. To me this thread is proof of what he's saying. Because different people define good/great writing in different ways. Are we really surprised by that? I think transformers 4 is a pile of horse dung. But hey, a LOT of people disagree and paid good money for it. It's not radical to say that subjectivity is a big part of the business, because it is. Why else are we sending out hundreds of queries in order to land a single rep who will be the right fit for us?

                          Obviously writers need to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that it's just the system that's not recognizing the quality of their script as opposed to flaws with the work itself. But I think that it is also too dogmatic to say that good material can never not get noticed. And I don't think it is unfair to point out the idea that a lot of the gatekeepers aren't really very qualified.

                          I think the op recognises the inherent paradox in his statements and has said as much.

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                          • #58
                            Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                            Originally posted by figment View Post
                            The OP says, hey, I know it's unfair, but heads up -- you might want to have recognizable act breaks if you want your material to resonate with an intern, and everyone goes nuts. It's offensive that an intern likes structure? It's offensive that an intern might want to have something interesting happen early? It's offensive that someone who works as a reader gave you their POV on how to combat intern wariness? WHILE also saying, you could take or leave this advice?

                            Come on.

                            IF you want your material to resonate with an intern -- so for those that are above being read by interns -- he's probably not talking to you anyway, right?
                            Who is offended? Who is going nuts? Seemed like a pretty straightforward exchange to me. Unfortunately, the OP's statements vastly oversimplified the issues while offering advice based on a limited perspective and questionable assumptions and claims. Is it not okay with you that people with different experience challenge some of what the OP said?

                            As well, there's another option on the whole "take or leave the advice", which is to question the validity of said advice so that people with less experience aren't led down the wrong path.

                            Finally, your last statement there which implies that there are different rules for writers being read at a low level than a high level--it's just flat out wrong and the crux of my criticism of OP's original point.

                            I do agree with some of the OP's other points, for example, don't be boring is always good advice.

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                            • #59
                              Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                              Originally posted by Celtic1 View Post
                              When i read the OP i thought...hmm, young guy stating what he's seen. But that advice is not for me.
                              For what it's worth, I haven't really followed my own advice. I've also gotten nowhere by doing that.

                              "There are a lot of bad screenplays so if you write a good screenplay people are going to respond to it. Now if you're way at the bottom and you're just starting your career it might take a long time to get to the people that'll appreciate it. It'll just get shot down by all the readers and everything. But if you keep persevering, eventually you'll get past that reader and on to the people that are really bored to death reading screenplays. These are the people that really appreciate something new. That was the big thing I had against me starting off in my career. I was writing **** differently, and different meant I was doing it wrong in that whole reader mentality. Before David Mamet was David Mamet, people probably thought he said **** too much too. But once they get to know you, once you get that Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, it's a whole different story. But in the beginning having a different voice is a real hindrance."
                              - Quentin Tarantino

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                              • #60
                                Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                                Originally posted by Geoff Alexander View Post

                                Interns matter, assistants matter more--but they aren't the people that really matter, at least not now. They may become the people that matter, but right now they are more likely to be obstacle than ally.

                                And don't anyone say it's not possible to skip those first few rungs, that's wrong. It just isn't easy.
                                I didn't imply there were different rules for those starting out -- you did.

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