Black List question - Nicholl placement

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  • #16
    Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

    From what I've heard, quite a few careers have been launched from the QF and SF placements. Bear in mind that most contests aren't perfectly sorted. In other words, winning scripts aren't necessarily better than scripts that go out in the quarters/semis.

    I'm reading all of this year's Black List scripts (the actual list, not the website) and I've come across two Nicholl SFs that I rate higher than the only winner I've read so far. As far as I know, that winning script has no real traction whereas one of the semifinalists has some big talent circling.

    There is bound to be a lot of subjectivity in any contests and judges may be looking for different things than execs/agents. That's why I don't think the idea that there are only 5-6 worthwhile scripts in a huge contest like the Nicholl is totally accurate.

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    • #17
      Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

      Originally posted by DaltWisney View Post
      From what I've heard, quite a few careers have been launched from the QF and SF placements. Bear in mind that most contests aren't perfectly sorted. In other words, winning scripts aren't necessarily better than scripts that go out in the quarters/semis.

      I'm reading all of this year's Black List scripts (the actual list, not the website) and I've come across two Nicholl SFs that I rate higher than the only winner I've read so far. As far as I know, that winning script has no real traction whereas one of the semifinalists has some big talent circling.

      There is bound to be a lot of subjectivity in any contests and judges may be looking for different things than execs/agents. That's why I don't think the idea that there are only 5-6 worthwhile scripts in a huge contest like the Nicholl is totally accurate.
      The script "My Girl" didn't even get past the first round in the Nicholl, but ended up selling for a million dollars months later. I think one of the Nicholl organizers personally called her to apologize.

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      • #18
        Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

        Originally posted by Friday View Post
        The script "My Girl" didn't even get past the first round in the Nicholl, but ended up selling for a million dollars months later. I think one of the Nicholl organizers personally called her to apologize.
        That's a great story, and is demonstrative that plenty of good work is passed over in contests, which is both the good news and the bad news for the writer:
        Are they to believe that their script in fact does have "what it takes" and just got passed over, or that their work should be rewritten or even shelved...because the answer could be any of those three things to different readers.

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        • #19
          Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

          Got my two BL scores btw. Got a 7/10 and a 6/10.

          Sheeeit. I'm not saying I deserve better, but that's right in the "not bad, but not really worth your time" ballpark that I was hoping to avoid.

          What's weird about the BL is when you get mostly positive comments from the reader and then the scores come in low. Better than being panned though.

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          • #20
            Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

            I think what you are hinting to is right. That is a great story, a script that the market deemed worthy of 1 million dollars ( I said that with the Dr. Evil pinky to the corner of the mouth). Because, I'm telling you, I think 350 or so from 7,000 are picked as QF and a lot of those scripts have major issues. To think this kind of quality script was missed, and I think they guarantee you that your script is read twice by two different judges. That means someone just tanked that script in a review. Maybe it was in a genre the judge just couldn't stand. Let's be honest though, that's an anomaly. Should writers hang their hat on an anomaly? Should they say their script is good even though judges didn't respond to it? That's a slippery slope.

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            • #21
              Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

              The Nicholl is living on its past reputation for choosing the best scripts. Under current Director Robin Swicord it appears they have another, unspoken agenda. In her speech at this past year's ceremony she outright says they aren't necessarily looking for the best screenplays that are near ready to be produced.

              Instead she talks about looking for writers who write about 'important' subjects. And that the scripts they choose don't need a strong beginning, middle, end, but rather they look for 2 out of 3 (beg., mid. end) being strong. Talk about lowering the bar.

              So if you're talented enough to write a commercially viable script that has a strong beginning, middle, end, you still may lose out to a lesser script that is about something 'important'. There's a video of her actual. speech on the Nicholl website under the 'ceremony' section.

              Furthermore, in the FAQ section of competition website it says, (paraphrasing) the reason more dramas advance [over other genres] is because more dramas are entered. By the same token, it should follow that because more men enter than women (roughly 70/30% per faq) then more men should be finalists/winners of fellowship. Of this past year's winners only 1 out of 5 scripts was written by a male only.(20%)

              Something is very skewed and doesn't smell kosher. Most men write stories about male protagonists, take a look at quarterfinalist winners to finalists, an overwhelming number of those scripts had female protagonists considering the 70/30 split. In order to skew the percentages so dramatically, they must have passed through almost every script with a female protagonist no matter whether it was a strong script or not.

              As long as Swicord places more emphasis on 'important' subject matter (i.e. social/political, female protagonists), then the Nicholl will continue to slide downward in the number of Nicholl scripts that actually sell. The contest can only ride its past reputation as a prestige competition for so long. Given the current regime I say submit those female protagonist scripts and instantly increase your odds of advancing regardless of your script's overall quality, which includes its potential for becoming a successful movie.

              Screenplays are crafted to make successful movies. By itself, the script is not literature and it seems like the current judging system excludes that fact.

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              • #22
                Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

                Originally posted by JaGra View Post
                The Nicholl is living on its past reputation for choosing the best scripts. Under current Director Robin Swicord it appears they have another, unspoken agenda. In her speech at this past year's ceremony she outright says they aren't necessarily looking for the best screenplays that are near ready to be produced.

                Instead she talks about looking for writers who write about 'important' subjects. And that the scripts they choose don't need a strong beginning, middle, end, but rather they look for 2 out of 3 (beg., mid. end) being strong. Talk about lowering the bar.

                So if you're talented enough to write a commercially viable script that has a strong beginning, middle, end, you still may lose out to a lesser script that is about something 'important'. There's a video of her actual. speech on the Nicholl website under the 'ceremony' section.

                Furthermore, in the FAQ section of competition website it says, (paraphrasing) the reason more dramas advance [over other genres] is because more dramas are entered. By the same token, it should follow that because more men enter than women (roughly 70/30% per faq) then more men should be finalists/winners of fellowship. Of this past year's winners only 1 out of 5 scripts was written by a male only.(20%)

                Something is very skewed and doesn't smell kosher. Most men write stories about male protagonists, take a look at quarterfinalist winners to finalists, an overwhelming number of those scripts had female protagonists considering the 70/30 split. In order to skew the percentages so dramatically, they must have passed through almost every script with a female protagonist no matter whether it was a strong script or not.

                As long as Swicord places more emphasis on 'important' subject matter (i.e. social/political, female protagonists), then the Nicholl will continue to slide downward in the number of Nicholl scripts that actually sell. The contest can only ride its past reputation as a prestige competition for so long. Given the current regime I say submit those female protagonist scripts and instantly increase your odds of advancing regardless of your script's overall quality, which includes its potential for becoming a successful movie.

                Screenplays are crafted to make successful movies. By itself, the script is not literature and it seems like the current judging system excludes that fact.
                this is nothing different than what Greg Beal and the instruction to Nicholl judges have stated in past years. they're not looking for scripts, they're looking for writers:

                http://reelauthors.com/screenplay-co...llowship-1.php

                "You could consider these scripts as 'writing samples.' It's as if the competition were a production company with an endless slate of open writing assignments. And that we plan to find the writers to fill all of those assignments through the competition. So, we're not seeking scripts; we will not buy any of the scripts submitted to us. Instead, we are seeking writers -- and the only means we have of identifying the talented writers is through their scripts."

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                • #23
                  Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

                  Originally posted by JaGra View Post
                  Something is very skewed and doesn't smell kosher. Most men write stories about male protagonists, take a look at quarterfinalist winners to finalists, an overwhelming number of those scripts had female protagonists considering the 70/30 split. In order to skew the percentages so dramatically, they must have passed through almost every script with a female protagonist no matter whether it was a strong script or not.
                  It almost sounds as if you believe there to be a vast conspiracy against men in the greatest screenwriting competition in the world. (If you can add a car chase scene and maybe some shooting, you might have the beginnings of a story.) But honestly, and without any intention to be rude, before you take one year's statistics and extrapolate that 'something doesn't smell kosher,' it might help for you to get additional information for the past decade at least, as a single year of skewed figures might be suspect. I also recall that, in addition to the male winner, another winner was a husband and wife partnership, so your 1 in 5 is not exactly right.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

                    FWIW, I've read several Nicholl winners and finalists from past years. Off the top of my head...St. Vincent by Cameron Young, Snatched by Lee Peterson, Armored by Jay Simpson, and Season of the Witch by Bragi Schut. I thought they all ranged from good to very impressive. I think every one of them could've been shot and would've had the potential to become a good movie.

                    On the other hand, I've read two of this year's winners and haven't been impressed. I'm about 20 scripts into my Black List reads and they both rank towards the bottom of my list. They each have good elements, but also massive flaws and issues. Neither one is close to being ready to shoot, IMO. Ironically, the two semi-finalists I've read so far (Trapline and Ruin) both impressed me more than the two winners.

                    This is a small sample size and obviously taste is subjective to a certain point, but my very limited anecdotal experience suggests that you might be right and that the Nicholl is moving in a bad direction.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

                      Originally posted by DaltWisney View Post
                      This is a small sample size and obviously taste is subjective to a certain point, but my very limited anecdotal experience suggests that you might be right and that the Nicholl is moving in a bad direction.
                      that would certainly come as some news to the Nicholl fellows and companies that continue to hire them and buy their scripts for production, which continues apace as always:

                      "Continued kudos to past Nicholl finalist Ben Jacoby. "Newsflash,- his spec script about Walter Cronkite's coverage of the assassination of JFK, was listed on both the Hit List and the Black List and now has Seth Rogen attached to star with David Gordon Green set to direct"

                      "Congrats to the writers of the 76 screenplays selected to the 2017 Black List. Special shout out to 2017 Nicholl fellows SJ Inwards and Cesar Vitale as well as past finalist Ben Jacoby. An additional 14 of the selected scripts were written or co-written by current or past Nicholl semifinalists and quarterfinalists. 40 of the 76 Black List screenplays were written or co-written by current or past Nicholl entrants."

                      "Congratulations to Nicholl Fellow Barbara Stepansky. Her screenplay for the Lifetime movie "Flint- received a Writer's Guild of America Awards nomination in the Long Form Original category"

                      "Congrats to Nicholl fellow Ken Kristensen, a staff writer on "Happy!- Based on the graphic novel and starring Christopher Meloni, "Happy!- premieres tonight at 10 pm on SYFY."

                      "Congratulations to Nicholl fellows Destin Cretton and Andrew Lanham as their project "Just Mercy- was picked up by Warner Brothers. Destin will direct from the script that the pair wrote, with Michael B. Jordan set to star!"

                      [These are just the announcements for December. Other contests only dream of moving in this "bad" of a direction]

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                      • #26
                        Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

                        Newsflash is a great script. That's my top rated script of the 21 I've read from the 2017 Black List so far.

                        If your contest is getting 6000-7000 entries each year, it's almost inevitable that some of them will be very good and that some of the entrants will go on to have big careers. Never really suggested otherwise.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

                          Originally posted by JaGra View Post
                          Instead she talks about looking for writers who write about 'important' subjects.

                          So if you're talented enough to write a commercially viable script that has a strong beginning, middle, end, you still may lose out to a lesser script that is about something 'important'.
                          I don't think "important" has a narrow definition, though.

                          So it sounds like they aren't looking for big tent pole popcorn scripts, but those scripts are never going to bought from a newbie anyway, are they?

                          I've QF four times in the Nicholl, and had one script make the "next 100." All different genres. A sports drama, an indie drama/thriller, a cop drama/thriller, a mystery/thriller. Those are all very commercially-viable scripts with the exception of the indie. *

                          They have well-defined characters. Maybe that's what they mean by "important."

                          Important could also mean use of theme -- does the script have a larger meaning.

                          *btw, two of those scripts have male leads, and a third has a male co-lead with his own arc. So casually implying that the key is to just write a female lead is off base and somewhat insulting to writers in general.
                          Last edited by figment; 12-29-2017, 06:45 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

                            There are a million contests for writers to select from, and it behooves us to know about the contests we submit to. Nicholl has tried to be crystal clear about what they are looking for, thus their publicizing their award ceremony which speaks to how they pick winners. JoeBanks also makes a terrific point that they are looking for up and coming writers.

                            Originally posted by figment View Post
                            I don't think "important" has a narrow definition, though...Important could also mean use of theme -- does the script have a larger meaning..
                            I think Figment is right here. From what I know about Nicholl, they are interested in stories of significance, thematic depth, or as you suggest, with a "larger meaning." I don't see how there's anything wrong with that.

                            If one doesn't wish to write something they might feel is "important," or which might not be the style Nicholl is looking for, they probably should spend their admission $ on another contest.

                            I, for one, love that they seem to chose stories with heft or gravitas or meaning.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

                              Originally posted by SBdeb View Post
                              ...Nicholl, they are interested in stories of significance, thematic depth, or as you suggest, with a "larger meaning." I don't see how there's anything wrong with that...I, for one, love that they seem to chose stories with heft or gravitas or meaning.
                              Well, I wasn't sure how to finesse my agreement with you so checked out the Nicholl FB page for the wording I was looking for: "...Nicholl Fellowships in Screenwriting, awarded annually by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences". That is, I was trying to describe the contest's affiliation with the Oscars.

                              So, obviously, they may not come right out and discriminate against big budget action superhero stories that make a gazillion euros/pounds/dollars, but they seem stuck on that old-fashioned view that movies are art and should also have something to say.

                              And yes, I agree with you that it's great to see.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Black List question - Nicholl placement

                                This is also coupled with the fact that the Nicholl and Austin (as with other competitions) by design must award a winner regardless of the quality of its pool of submissions. If there are 7K+ submissions, five Nicholl fellows must be chosen.

                                In the real world, it wouldn't matter if there were 70K+ submissions (which isn't far off according to the WGA registry every year) - if all 70K+ aren't good enough, none get chosen.

                                Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                                I understand it is a great accomplishment for the writer, but do you have any idea how many semi finalist scripts producers/agents/managers have read that were no where near the quality necessary to compete in the market? 99% of the semi finalist scripts end up in a landfill somewhere.

                                I made the top 100 of the Nichol a decade ago. Looking back, that script was riddled with problems from concept to character to structure, but it made the top 100 out of about 5,000 I think it was back then. You know what that says? 95% of the Nichol entries are a pure train wreck. You have quarterfinalist train wrecks and semi finalist train wrecks. I know cause I made the semis with a train wreck.

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