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Old 03-16-2018, 01:19 PM   #31
ChadStrohl
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Default Re: Wrinkle in Time

"Because they aim for a higher purpose"? Or, well... they say they do. Does anybody honestly believe that? They are as corporate as any other corporation. Investors and bottom lines, chasing trends, taking managed risks. Of course, I can't know that either. I'm not in their board rooms. Maybe they are the most altruistic bunch of do gooders the world has ever known. Don Diegos in their palatial mansions who come out as Zorro to save the masses from themselves. Insert -eye roll- here. What? They could be.

And...

"People are more motivated to see movies when they see people who look like them on screen"? Wow. Just... wow. I'm almost at a loss on how to even approach that. So does that mean I shouldn't have liked Black Panther? Or maybe it was because I identified with the Martin Freeman character. Yeah. That must be it. Because social dictums forbid me to see past the fact that T'Challa reprsents loyalty to family and country, espouses heroism and mercy. No. God no. I just need to know he's a ...(whisper) Black man.

If this is what the future holds to actually get to a balanced society of equality and justice - all of us hammering people with statistics that don't mean squat or throwing out dubious rationale for what people believe to be equality and justice - then I posit that we are all doomed.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:42 PM   #32
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Default Re: Wrinkle in Time

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Originally Posted by Klazart View Post

I.E. The film sucks because the creatives involved were too focussed on inclusion and diversity. Which is straight up bigotry really.

You're arguing against a strawman you built yourself. You are refuting a point that UpandComing never made in the first place.
No. The film sucks because they emphasized diversity over telling the actual story. I didn't think that was too hard to understand.

No strawman involved. UpandComing has been trying to find reasons to justify changing the story through this whole thread. So, yeah, I am refuting UpandComing.
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:42 PM   #33
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I understand the financial argument for diversity but obviously, your argument is in favor of the "higher purpose" of diversity rather than for the studios to make more money.

Regarding the first argument, are you really arguing that movies should reflect the world we live in? For example, do you think that characters in movies should reflect statistical reality? Should movie characters that are scientists or violent criminals reflect an average of the racial demographics we see in reality?

Would you object to a black woman being cast in a movie about a silicon valley startup because black women are so rare in the computer science field or would you find that choice of casting refreshing?
StoryWriter kept saying that a few ethnic/gender changes in a movie was "beating people over the head with a sledgehammer." His argument suggested that the changes were extreme, so I used numbers to show him how much the opposite situation (the preponderance of white males in movies) was the true extreme. I used this strategy because numbers are an effective way of supporting an argument (rather than just stating opinions).

I threw out the next set of statistics because entlassen falsely stated that black people are significantly over-represented in movies. I used the numbers to prove him wrong.

So, I know it may seem like I'm hung up on numbers, but I didn't just pull them out for the sake of pulling them out. I used them for legitimate purposes -- to support and refute various arguments.

As for your scenario about a black woman in a Silicon Valley startup -- I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying that there should be 13% black people and 17% Latinos in every movie. Of course that wouldn't be realistic. A movie set in a Mormon family in 1970s Utah would not be realistic if it had 13% black people and 17% Latinos. What I am saying is two things:

a) The race of the characters in AWIT has nothing to do with the storyline. So to attack this particular movie as promoting some kind of "agenda" because of a few ethnic/gender changes is just ridiculous. Movie set in 1970s Utah with an interracial family at its center? Not very believable. Movie set in modern-day society in an unnamed town with an interracial family at its center? Quite believable.

b) Hollywood should work harder to have more movies with minorities and women in the lead roles/at the center. Why? Because in real life, they are the leads and heroes in their own stories. The only reason there are so many movies with white guys in lead roles is because -- guess what -- white guys do all the greenlighting at studios. It is a reflection of who they are most comfortable with seeing on screen -- themselves. But it is ignoring many stories out there about people who look different. And that needs to change.

With that said, even if there aren't a lot of black women in Silicon Valley startups, there are definitely some. And I guarantee you that a movie following a black woman in a startup would be more interesting than a white or Asian guy just because we're not used to seeing that. The same way it was interesting to see black female scientists in "Hidden Figures" or the way it was interesting to see a white hip-hop artist in "8 Mile." Going against the grain automatically makes things more fresh.
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:43 PM   #34
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I personally haven't seen this one, but I have heard and read that it is horrible aside from the diversity issue. To be honest though, I haven't read anything about the diversity thing in the reviews I have read online except for those of "non-critics".

It does seem to be an issue with many people though if only because of the "in your face" aspect of the film.

Being a mixed race person myself, I don't have any issues with putting diversity in a film/tv show as long as it isn't done just to be pc or trendy. If it isn't thrown in there and not talked about all the time, then ok. I don't like the ones that put multiple races or gay people in because they are trying to "prove a point". If the story calls for it or even if it doesn't and that person is the best actor/actress for the role, then go for it.

George Romero did a wonderful job putting a black man as the hero in the original Night of the Living Dead and it wasn't overtly about his being black. He just happened to be black.

I tend to lean toward what Morgan Freeman said. He said he is a man, not a black man and until people stop separating themselves no one is going to see anyone for what they really are....people of the human race. (sorry that is not a direct quote but that is basically what he said in an interview once).

But to drive a point into the ground about whatever group of people you feel are the most disenfranchised this week/month/year or whatever then that in my opinion takes away from a good story.

And just to put it out there, I always notice no one really talks about Native Americans who really have been "crapped" upon in history (they were nearly exterminated from the face of the Earth), nor the Irish who were slaves right alongside African Americans or even the ancient Romans who enslaved each other based on economics (the rich families enslaved the poor).

So to say only a few demographics are the only ones who have been treated badly in history (or even currently) is disrespectful to all humans who at some point in history have been treated unfairly.

Sadly, it's what some humans do...they treat "different from them" badly no matter who or what (and that includes other humans, animals and the planet).

And until people can "get over themselves" and realize we are all people, we all have a hard time dealing with life, none of us really has all the answers, no one is "better" than anyone else, and we should all work to be the best person each of us can be then I fear we will never "evolve" and grow beyond our petty selves.
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:45 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ChadStrohl View Post
"Because they aim for a higher purpose"? Or, well... they say they do. Does anybody honestly believe that? They are as corporate as any other corporation. Investors and bottom lines, chasing trends, taking managed risks. Of course, I can't know that either. I'm not in their board rooms. Maybe they are the most altruistic bunch of do gooders the world has ever known. Don Diegos in their palatial mansions who come out as Zorro to save the masses from themselves. Insert -eye roll- here. What? They could be.
I know you're cynical, but there are actually people in the movie industry who care about them being more than just profit machines. Maybe not so much on the studio executive side, but definitely among producers. Besides, consumers don't think about how much money they can give studios when buying tickets. They think about going to experience a form of art. And they can smell when your only motive is profit all the way -- which is one of the reasons they are rejecting so many reboots and spinoffs. Studios are starting to realize this. That's why Marvel has put so much effort into making its movies have strong storylines and strong character development (with Oscar-caliber actors) instead of just making them the latest blow 'em up fest.

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"People are more motivated to see movies when they see people who look like them on screen"? Wow. Just... wow. I'm almost at a loss on how to even approach that. So does that mean I shouldn't have liked Black Panther? Or maybe it was because I identified with the Martin Freeman character. Yeah. That must be it. Because social dictums forbid me to see past the fact that T'Challa reprsents loyalty to family and country, espouses heroism and mercy. No. God no. I just need to know he's a ...(whisper) Black man.

If this is what the future holds to actually get to a balanced society of equality and justice - all of us hammering people with statistics that don't mean squat or throwing out dubious rationale for what people believe to be equality and justice - then I posit that we are all doomed.
That statement does not make any sense whatsoever. Saying that "Black Panther" made more money because black people enjoyed seeing themselves as heroes does not mean that white people couldn't enjoy it too. It just means that the movie attracted many more people to theater than it normally would have -- both people of all colors who like comic book movies and black people who may not normally have seen a comic book movie but liked seeing themselves as heroes. Does that make sense?
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:48 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by StoryWriter View Post
No. The film sucks because they emphasized diversity over telling the actual story. I didn't think that was too hard to understand.

No strawman involved. UpandComing has been trying to find reasons to justify changing the story through this whole thread. So, yeah, I am refuting UpandComing.
Wow! You're just repeating your inane argument at this point, one that has no evidence supporting it whatsoever. Speaking more from your bitterness than actual sense.

Once again, changing the ethnicity/gender of a few characters did not take away time/emphasis on telling the actual story because changing the ethnicity/gender of the characters did not take a lot of time, and had no significant impact on the actual storyline.

Are you allergic to logic or something?
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Old 03-16-2018, 03:37 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by UpandComing View Post
I know you're cynical, but there are actually people in the movie industry who care about them being more than just profit machines.
That’s a fair point. I was being cynical. I’m sure many on the ground floor do have higher ambition. Those are the artists, I’m guessing.


Quote:
That statement does not make any sense whatsoever. Saying that "Black Panther" made more money because black people enjoyed seeing themselves as heroes does not mean that white people couldn't enjoy it too. It just means that the movie attracted many more people to theater than it normally would have -- both people of all colors who like comic book movies and black people who may not normally have seen a comic book movie but liked seeing themselves as heroes. Does that make sense?
It makes perfect sense. And that is my point exactly. We cannot exist in a bizarro universe where it’s ok to say blacks like movies better if they have black people in them, but white people can’t wonder why the original white character is suddenly black. That’s doublethink. Not to mention it’s way overgeneralizing all races and all cultures, marginalizing everyone into “stereoptypes”, and not treating people as unique individuals with their own unique perspective.
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Old 03-16-2018, 04:33 PM   #38
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That’s a fair point. I was being cynical. I’m sure many on the ground floor do have higher ambition. Those are the artists, I’m guessing.

It makes perfect sense. And that is my point exactly. We cannot exist in a bizarro universe where it’s ok to say blacks like movies better if they have black people in them, but white people can’t wonder why the original white character is suddenly black. That’s doublethink. Not to mention it’s way overgeneralizing all races and all cultures, marginalizing everyone into “stereoptypes”, and not treating people as unique individuals with their own unique perspective.
There's nothing at all wrong with white people wondering why the original white character in a movie is suddenly black. That's a natural, perfectly understandable response. There's something wrong with them saying that:

a) Such a change is directly what contributed to problems in the movie's overall storyline (when such a change did not in fact even relate to or impact the storyline)

b) Moviegoers actively avoided the movie because such ethnic changes were made (when they have no evidence to actually back up that assertion -- besides a few angry screeds in comments sections of websites)
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:17 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by UpandComing View Post
There's nothing at all with white people wondering why the original white character in a movie is suddenly black. That's a natural, perfectly understandable response. There's something wrong with them saying that:

a) Such a change is directly what contributed to problems in the movie's overall storyline (when such a change did not in fact even relate to or impact the storyline)

b) Moviegoers actively avoided the movie because such ethnic changes were made (when they have no evidence to actually back up that assertion -- besides a few angry screeds in comments sections of websites)
That is true. Avoiding a movie on that basis is wrong headed. Take for instance Annie a few years ago. Unneeded and unnecessary changes, but all the while a still very much enjoyable movie.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:07 PM   #40
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Maybe you should re-read what I wrote. I'm not talking about "speaking roles" (where do you even get that data from?) I'm talking about media representation in general: TV, movies, music. There's no way blacks or any non-whites are under-represented in any of that.
First of all, I'm not sure why you're bringing up the entire media landscape. This is a screenwriting website, so the focus is on movies and TV.

Second, I don't understand your quibble. Characters' value in a movie or TV show is measured by how big of a speaking part they have. It's a reflection of how integral they are to driving the story forward.

I got my data from the Annenberg Center, which has been collecting this information for years (and is the main source the studio execs turn to for this research). It indicates that minorities are under-represented in speaking roles in both movies and TV. The situation is slightly better in TV, and has improved in the last few years, only because there is an abundance of programming now with much of it targeted to niche audiences.

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Black Panther reflects the world we live in? Star Wars? The Fast and the Furious, where street racers steal tanks and do battle against Russian submarines?

So maybe you mean movies need to racially reflect the world we live in, but why is that more important than things like authenticity, realism, or historical accuracy?
I fully believe in realism and historical accuracy. That's why I brought up the example about a 1970s Mormon family in Utah. As I said before, AWIT is set in an unnamed town in present day. There's nothing about an interracial family in that situation that is "inauthentic" or "inaccurate." Yet people keep bitching about it.

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Hollywood striving to be "woke" on every issue will ensure that creatives with genuine talent will be turned off by the industry and seek other outlets. In some respects we already have this, which is why the industry now basically puts out two types of movies, Oscar bait dramas no one cares about and CGI toy battles for children and adults with the minds of children.
That statement is utter nonsense. It's because Hollywood is focusing on comic book movies and biopics/true stories (because they are based on well-known entities) that creatives are turning to TV, not the other way around. In fact, many creatives are turning to TV because it offers many more opportunities to tell stories with diverse characters that would never be given the budgets for movies ("Transparent" on Amazon, "OITNB" on Netflix, "Difficult People" on Hulu, etc.).

You have a strong tendency to assume that most other white people (white consumers, white creatives, etc.) are reacting to diversity in the same negative way that you do, yet are never able to provide any actual evidence. I know some people embrace "alternative facts," but thankfully I think most screenwriters are smarter than that.
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