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Old 02-15-2013, 04:51 PM   #141
WaitForIt
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Default Re: New prodco to focus on female directors and "strong roles for women"

I have no problem with most of what she said. She echoes the same sentiment I did earlier in this thread, women aren't trying, and ponders why, with a different and very instructive point of view.

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There are certain things that women are expected to be: submissive, gentle, unthreatening, refined, delicate little flowers. But these qualities are irreconcilable with being a director, and I believe this is why the ratio of male to female directors is still so skewed. The opportunities still exist, but women's attitudes about themselves — at least in Hollywood, in my experience — has [sic] largely stayed the same. It isn't just that capable women are being turned away from the job. Capable women aren't even applying for the job. The most important missing factor in ladies directing is ladies believing they can direct at all.
Emphasis hers. I think she'd be thrilled with this new production company if it helps open the door to more exposure for existing professionals so that more females will start knocking on the door. Which would lead to starting earlier in the pipeline, encouraging girls to consider these careers to begin with.

But I dislike pot/kettle scenarios. My initial reaction to the language featured quite prominently in the title was negative because we women can't be shaming men for doing things which create a hostile environment for women (such as when men use misogynistic terms, whether purposely or -- and I think this is most common -- thoughtlessly) while simultaneously engaging in the same behaviors ourselves, making others feel unwelcome or uncomfortable for no other reason than that they have different equipment, but saying women have a license while men should know better. Either the behavior is helpful or it's not. Nothing wrong with having the same respectful standards for everyone.

However ... it seems I was mistaken in my interpretation. And it seems I am indeed just not hip.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:59 PM   #142
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Default Re: New prodco to focus on female directors and "strong roles for women"

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Originally Posted by sc111 View Post
PS: For fun, I copied and pasted Eden's article in Word. Including the footnote, it's 2,125 words. The word 'peen' was used exactly twice. Once in the title and once in the fifth paragraph, then abandoned. Considering there's a chance the editor wrote the article title, it's highly possible Eden Sher used the word once. Sad if it diminishes the value of the other 2,124 words.
Also -- if a non-black person used a derogatory term for black people, and used it in a negative way even if flippantly, just once in a 2,000-word article, is that more okay than using it once in a 200-word article? Is it more okay to do so in a 200,000-word book? That's where I'm coming from and that's how I perceive the argument made in the postscript. Just something to consider overall, my misinterpretation of the nature of the apparently non-derogatory word in question notwithstanding.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:05 PM   #143
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Default Re: New prodco to focus on female directors and "strong roles for women"

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Originally Posted by WaitForIt View Post

But I dislike pot/kettle scenarios. My initial reaction to the language featured quite prominently in the title was negative because we women can't be shaming men for doing things which create a hostile environment for women (such as when men use misogynistic terms, whether purposely or -- and I think this is most common -- thoughtlessly) while simultaneously engaging in the same behaviors ourselves, making others feel unwelcome or uncomfortable for no other reason than that they have different equipment, but saying women have a license while men should know better. Either the behavior is helpful or it's not. Nothing wrong with having the same respectful standards for everyone.

However ... it seems I was mistaken in my interpretation. And it seems I am indeed just not hip.
In theory, I agree.

In practice, this attitude usually gets you labeled uptight or politically correct (a phrase I loathe) and ultimately you get dismissed.

Sometimes I have engaged in this behavior to make a point. I used to have a boss that called me "honey" or "sweetheart". I would respond by calling him something equally inappropriate, babe, darling, sugar, etc. It only took a couple of days for him to catch on.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:37 PM   #144
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Default Re: New prodco to focus on female directors and "strong roles for women"

Reposted because somehow my post disappeared when I tried to fix typos.

Just to be clear -- I was not saying women have a license to use pejorative terms when discussing men simply because some men use misogynist terms when discussing women. My opinion is our society conditions us all to judge women more harshly when they "act like a man" than when men "act like man." It's the whole, "be nice, be a lady" phenomenon.

For example, years ago I read somewhere that most people believe a drunk man is funny but an equally drunk woman is deemed pathetic. When I read it I thought it was BS. But then I started to observe my own reactions in situations where I saw a really drunk woman and I found myself judging her more harshly than I've ever judged a guy equally drunk. I had to wonder why? Where did I get this from?

Two years ago, the girl in my care complained to me that she kept getting into trouble with her 3rd grade teacher for speaking out in class yet claimed the teacher overlooks it when boys do the same exact thing.

I thought the kid was finding excuses but, later in the year, I thought differently when I volunteered to help out with a class party. As the cookies and other sugary stuff kicked in all the kids started getting hyper and the noise level was pretty high. Some boys started tossing wads of paper around the room. Teacher said nothing, as if she didn't see it. But then one of the girls crumbled up a paper and threw it -- somehow this caught the teacher's attention and she told the girl to stop and "act like a young lady."

So, a little later I had a conference with the teacher and brought up what I thought was her double standard. She admitted she had a double standard! She gave me "the boys will be boys line" but it "looks bad" when girls act out in the same way. Now, maybe this particular teacher is an outlier but ... I don't know. Is she? I mean, who conditioned this woman to embrace this idea and pass it on to her students? (And it's not like she's from some past generation. She was 38 at the time.)

Now, if it's true girls are conditioned by their own experience to conclude women are held to a higher standard of behavior than men -- and learn to adjust their behavior accordingly -- wouldn't it contribute to a woman's hesitancy to risk failing huge, if, on some level, she believes she'll be judged more harshly for her failures?

(BTW: I believe it's documented that men are bigger risk takers than women. I'm just trying to figure out if female hormones take all the blame or if conditioning is a significant part of it, too.)

Anyway -- I find it all fascinating and I think it's worth determining that conditioning may be part of the reason fewer women are vying for the huge golden-ring careers.
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Last edited by sc111 : 02-15-2013 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:37 PM   #145
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Default Re: New prodco to focus on female directors and "strong roles for women"

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In theory, I agree.

In practice, this attitude usually gets you labeled uptight or politically correct (a phrase I loathe) and ultimately you get dismissed.

Sometimes I have engaged in this behavior to make a point. I used to have a boss that called me "honey" or "sweetheart". I would respond by calling him something equally inappropriate, babe, darling, sugar, etc. It only took a couple of days for him to catch on.
I wonder if he remembers still?

I remember the first time someone with Gypsy ancestry informed me that the verb "to gyp" is racist and would I please not use it. I had no idea -- I think a lot of people don't, and I've seen it innocently spelled "jip" as in "The vending machine jipped me" -- and my initial reaction was defensive because of my lack of ill intention and because of how common the usage is. But I was in the wrong. Encouraging sensitivity in others is a delicate undertaking. Nobody likes having their eyes opened to potential prior transgressions. And change is hard.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:49 PM   #146
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Default Re: New prodco to focus on female directors and "strong roles for women"

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Originally Posted by sc111 View Post
Just to be clear -- I was not saying women have a license to use pejorative terms when discussing men simply because some men use misogynist terms when discussing women. My opinion is our society conditions us all to judge women more harshly when they "act like a man" than when men "act like man." It's the whole, "be nice, be a lady" phenomenon.

For example, years ago I read somewhere that most people believe a drunk man is funny but an equally drunk woman is deemed pathetic. When I read it I thought it was BS. But then I started to observe my own reactions in situations where I saw a really drunk woman and I found myself judging her more harshly than I've ever judged a guy equally drunk. I had to wonder why? Where did I get this from?

Two years ago, the girl in my care complained to me that she kept getting into trouble with her 3rd grade teacher for speaking out in class yet claimed the teacher overlooks it when boys do the same exact thing.

I thought the kid was finding excuses but, later in the year, I thought differwntly when I volunteered to help out with a class party. As the cookies and other sugary stuff kicked in all the kids started getting hyper and the noise level was pretty high. Some boys started tossing wads of paper around the room. Teacher said nothing, as if she didn't see it. But then one of the girls crumbled up a paper and threw it -- somehow this caught the teacher's attention and she told the girl to stop and "act like a young lady." So, a little later I had a conference with the teacher and brought up what I thought was her double standard. She admitted she had a double standard! She gave me "the boys will be boys line" but it "looks bad" when girls act out in the same way. Now, maybe this particular teacher is an outlier but ... I don't know. Is she? I mean, who conditioned this woman teacher to embrace this idea and pass it on to her students? (And it's not like she's from some past generation. She was 38 at the time.)

Now, if it's true girls are conditioned by their own experience to conclude women are held to a higher standard of behavior than men -- and learn to adjust their behavior accordingly -- wouldn't it contribute to a woman's hesitancy to risk failing huge, if, on some level, she believes she'll be judged more harshly for her failures?

(BTW: I believe it's documented that men are bigger risk takers than women. I'm just trying to figure out if female hormones take all the blame or if conditioning is a significant part of it, too.)

Anyway -- I find it all fascinating and I think it's worth determining that conditioning may be part of the reason fewer women are vying for the huge golden-ring careers.
Pejorative! I was trying to dredge that word up earlier.

So jobs where a person will almost inevitably have to piss off other people sometimes -- you're mulling over whether women avoid them, be it actively or subconsciously, and on a nature vs. nurture level. That's important because the answer(s) would help determine the best approach when trying to effect change.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:52 PM   #147
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Default Re: New prodco to focus on female directors and "strong roles for women"

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Originally Posted by WaitForIt View Post
Pejorative! I was trying to dredge that word up earlier.

So jobs where a person will almost inevitably have to piss off other people sometimes -- you're mulling over whether women avoid them, be it actively or subconsciously, and on a nature vs. nurture level. That's important because the answer(s) would help determine the best approach when trying to effect change.
re BF - yes. Exactly. That's it in a nutshell.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:01 PM   #148
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Default Re: New prodco to focus on female directors and "strong roles for women"

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So jobs where a person will almost inevitably have to piss off other people sometimes -- you're mulling over whether women avoid them, be it actively or subconsciously, and on a nature vs. nurture level. That's important because the answer(s) would help determine the best approach when trying to effect change.
An interesting related thing - my day job involves customer service and sometimes I have to tell the customer nope, sorry, we can't do that. There's always a reason, and I explain the reason, but quite often, they don't take no for an answer until...they hear the same "no" and same explanation from my male coworker.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:17 PM   #149
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Default Re: New prodco to focus on female directors and "strong roles for women"

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An interesting related thing - my day job involves customer service and sometimes I have to tell the customer nope, sorry, we can't do that. There's always a reason, and I explain the reason, but quite often, they don't take no for an answer until...they hear the same "no" and same explanation from my male coworker.
I've somehow never ended up in a job situation where a customer had a choice, but my BFF (with whom I'm going to discuss all of this because she's a women's studies chica and way more of a film geek than I) is a librarian and had this happen recently. Males are actually pretty thin on the ground in libraries around here, employee-wise; I'm going to ask if that's the case in the MLS classes as well. But the person who insisted on waiting 15 minutes just to speak to the male was an older woman. I wonder to what extent relatively recent cultural shifts are still rippling through the generations.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:41 AM   #150
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Default Re: New prodco to focus on female directors and "strong roles for women"

I think women who are control freak "bitches" would make great directors. Time to redirect their attention away from the husband and kids and onto the set.
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