SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

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  • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

    @terrance: the opinion that salt really works is shared by huge numbers of people at all levels. so maybe you can reject that one person who says i didn't believe your script, but when so many people believe a movie that lacks credibility at many levels you have few places to turn. i'm trying to say it's a growing systemic problem, not just an isolated case.

    @superscribe: not talking about paid feedback. never used it. i'm talking about working on ideas with managers/producers. pitching to agents. submitting to readers at studios and prod cos, etc. i hear that stuff all the time. "seems too familiar" "reminds me of" "i didn't buy it when this happened." i haven't read the spec for salt, so i can't comment. i don't doubt you, though, if you say it's slick. but if studios want fresh and want different how does the ultra fresh salt--and you've passed on many so-so scripts-- end up as the cliched, pastiche so-so movie that we saw? does a studio really want a strong, unique voice or a box office success?

    this might be two different subjects. a fresh spec with an interesting voice might break you in, so i can see where salt the spec may have accomplished that. but the final product lacks and what are the reasons for that? what can and should screenwriters take away from that?

    good debate in any event.
    Quato Lives!

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    • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

      I'm not a fan of the script or the movie, but I understand why they dropped all the cute family stuff in the script. It reads like a bad rom com of Edwin preparing his daughter's birthday party. The tone of the script is all over the place going from the cutesy back and forth from Edwin and Winter to the birthday party to the over the top cartoony we've seen it a thousand times of somebody being trained to become the ultimate fighting machine.

      The biggest problem with the script, however, is the incessant interrogation going from the Russian informant to Salt. It's never ending.

      I think having Angelina trying to escape right away in the movie was the right move. It turns a script that reads like a teleplay into something dramatic with action. Still, the movie is terrible and preposterous.

      The original script, however, is worse.

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      • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

        Originally posted by Terrance Mulloy View Post
        It's like all these people complaining about the unrealistic nature of Inception. Really? So you'd steal dreams differently because you understand the subject matter better than Nolan?
        Originally posted by Terrance Mulloy View Post
        Look at Source Code. Everyone gave that script a blow job. Yes it was high concept, well written, and well executed - but would you consider it believable?
        You're asking the wrong questions.

        It's not a matter of whether or not the radical nature of sci-fi stories is believable in a real-world context. It's about characters and the decisions they make, as well as the decisions the writer has made in terms of story, structure and content. Wrong/poor decisions are what lead people astray.

        Nobody, but nobody has a problem with a ninja billionaire playing after-dark vigilante in a rubber costume. We accept that part. But when he makes the rash and abrupt decision to stop doing so without ever letting the audience know his motivation or reason for doing so, people stop buying into it. I know I did.

        I had absolutely zero complaints about a magical briefcase that can put people into fantastical dream worlds, but I had no flipping clue why in the fuck the hero of the story was even in the heist dream to begin with when he did next to nothing pertaining to the actual heist. It's tantamount to writing a story about a spectacular basketball player and keeping him on the bench to pine over his crazy girlfriend while everyone else actually plays the game. That decision makes less sense than the conceit of entering people's dreams to influence their large scale business decisions.

        So do I "believe" Source Code? Sure, I do. Do I "believe" Inception? The technology part, sure. I believe that machine can exist in that film. Why not? It's all the parts where storytelling logic was cast to the wayside that throw me off - I don't believe the real-world aspects for half a second because I can compare them to this world where logic rules the universe. If I have to ask why so and so did this or why that fella is even around and how come such and such a thing happened...then we're gonna have problems.

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        • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

          Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
          You're asking the wrong questions.
          See, I don't think I am. I'm simply trying to highlight the subjective nature - which in many ways, makes it kind of futile to be debating the merits of a film, because everyone is going to view it differently.

          I just don't read into it as much as some people. I do see what you mean though. It's like the whole slasher/final girl thing. You scream in frustration at the stupid choices one makes when being hunted by a guy in a hockey mask. But that's kind of what makes it fun.

          In regards to the original topic - I actually dug Salt (liked the original script way better though), and although I got what Nolan was trying to do with Inception, I came out a little confused, and could totally understand why people were dozing off halfway through it. I've watched it twice now and I still can't make my mind up as to whether it genius or garbage.
          @TerranceMulloy

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          • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

            Originally posted by Terrance Mulloy View Post
            ...and although I got what Nolan was trying to do with Inception, I came out a little confused, and could totally understand why people were dozing off halfway through it. I've watched it twice now and I still can't make my mind up as to whether it genius or garbage.
            Genius concept, garbage execution.

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            • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

              Originally posted by EddieCoyle View Post
              My point was not that Salt was believable or not (I think not but that's me), but how do you take seriously qualified readers who say your fun not to be taken too seriously action spec is not believable when Salt is exactly that?
              Everything is a balance between what works and what doesn't work.

              If more stuff works, the stuff that doens't work doesn't matter.

              If less stuff works (or things that are critical aren't there or don't work well), then the stuff that doesn't work becomes more important.

              So, you could have the same completely silly story in two films/scripts and in one no one cares and in the other it sinks the film/script.

              In the STAR TREK reboot, Kirk is chased through the snow by a monster and hides in a cave, where he bumps into Old Spock - who is in there hiding from the monster. They have a conversation, and Old Spock tell Kirk that there's an outpost where Scotty and others are holed up - safe from monster attacks. Kirk wants to go there, so he and Spock leave the cave and walk to the outpost, having a little conversation along the way. Um, what about the monster? (This film is full of stuff like this - but nobody cared because it was *fun*.)

              SALT got either a B+ or B from audiences through Cinemascore, whatever the film's flaws - they didn't seem to care, because the good stuff overpowered them. The key with any script or film is more good stuff than bad stuff.

              If someone tells you your story in't plausable, that's probably a problem - but the larger problem is that there isn't enough good stuff to balance out the bad.

              - Bill
              Free Script Tips:
              http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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              • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

                Originally posted by wcmartell View Post

                If someone tells you your story in't plausable, that's probably a problem - but the larger problem is that there isn't enough good stuff to balance out the bad.

                - Bill
                Bill,
                A thoughtful response. I agree that Stark Trek had many problems. Very similar movie to Salt in terms of faults (wow, a rhyme). Lots of action. A fun two hour ride. But full of dumb, head-slapping holes. Now that may be because I'm comparing it to the TV show and the other movies (not all of them) which were very well written, explored themes, and had characters we cared about who grew and arced. Setting that aside, can one believe in any intergalactic, military-style organization where a troubled, private sneaks aboard a star ship and somehow becomes its captain sixty minutes later?

                You correctly point out that people put those things aside and just have fun. But to your last paragraph, if I write a fun, sci-fi script that isn't to be taken too seriously no one should say it's implausible given the success of ST. How is the implausibility in my script a problem when the industry is choc full of people who praise Star Trek? How can one seriously commend Star Trek as well-written but say they didn't believe my spec?

                Of course I realize the subjective nature (and business aspects) of all of this. What I'm saying is that it seems that in the last ten years the standards for story logic in movies --at least in certain genres-- have really dropped (Biohazard's explanation of logic in and out of real and story worlds is brilliantly put), and from the standpoint of a screenwriter submitting material to sell or option there's an enormous and frustrating inconsistency between what people seem to accept on the screen but will reject in spec scripts.

                Hope that came out clearly.
                Quato Lives!

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                • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

                  Originally posted by EddieCoyle View Post
                  Setting that aside, can one believe in any intergalactic, military-style organization where a troubled, private sneaks aboard a star ship and somehow becomes its captain sixty minutes later?

                  You correctly point out that people put those things aside and just have fun. But to your last paragraph, if I write a fun, sci-fi script that isn't to be taken too seriously no one should say it's implausible given the success of ST. How is the implausibility in my script a problem when the industry is choc full of people who praise Star Trek? How can one seriously commend Star Trek as well-written but say they didn't believe my spec?
                  When you say it like that, of course it does sound implausible. But the execution of it made it work in the eyes of the audience. They were taken along for the ride. The audience didn't stop and groan at the screen when all this was happening. You may have, but that in itself is subjective. No doubt there will be people who will never ever believe in an X-MEN or SUPERMAN or STAR WARS movie, no matter how you spin it -- because to them the very idea of genetic mutations in the form of "controlling the weather" will never ever be plausible -- or the fact that spaceships always seem to encounter each other in the same spatial orientation etc.

                  To me, it's all down to the execution. I also get plenty of that "it feels familiar" note. One particular note in my latest teen script was that two of the characters felt too much like the girl and gay guy that befriended Lindsey Lohan's character in MEAN GIRLS. And, admittedly, I did sort of have them in mind subconsciously after doing all the research of watching successful teen movies before tackling my draft. But the issue was leering enough that it was pointed out to me. In other words, the execution failed. If these guys pointed it out, you can be sure that everyday Joe audience will be throwing popcorn at the screen in disbelief -- 'cause the guys I'm working with have great instincts, imo.

                  To me, if it's being pointing out in the spec, it's gonna be 100 times worst on the screen when the audience sees it. It's a personal judgement call. But that's my opinion on it.

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                  • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

                    You have to remember that the suits need a good script first in order to stroke their superiority complex and turn it into garbage. Giving them a weak script would be insulting. It's their job to make it weak. (i.e. Salt, countless other films, etc.)

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                    • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

                      I tried reading the script back before the movie came out. I wasn't very impressed with any of it but I had to finally call it quits when I came to the scene where's she's making an improvised rocket launcher out of **** in the office.

                      Ammonium nitrate (34-0-0) — Another solid nitrogen product typically applied in granular form is valued for its use on pasture lands and specialty crops such as citrus.
                      Good thing they decided to grow an orange tree in the office and the office gardener decided to leave out a highly dangerous fertilizer after he was done gardening.

                      But worst of all as she's getting all these bomb making ingredients together for a solid page and the guys watching her on the camera are like:

                      "it's almost like she's making.."

                      Me- "A bomb"

                      "I think it starts with a b maybe..."

                      Me- "A bomb"

                      "I wanna say ba-ba...um...baby?"

                      Me- "A bomb"

                      "La Bamba?"

                      Me- "A bomb"

                      "Wait a minute....OH MY GOD SHE'S MAKING A BOMB. FIRE TEAM GET OUT OF THERE NOW!!!!!...."

                      BOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!


                      When your reader starts feeling like a more qualified CIA agent than the ones in your movie I think that's a bad sign.



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                      • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

                        Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                        SALT got either a B+ or B from audiences through Cinemascore, whatever the film's flaws - they didn't seem to care...
                        Bill, are you implying that it's okay to write garbage because the audiences are idiots?

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                        • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

                          No - I'm saying that when you have a stew, and despite your best efforts, one (or more) of the ingedients isn't of the best quality, the other ingredients may taste so good that nobody notices. That doesn't mean you *try* to make bad stew, or cut corners by buying month old meat, or whatever - just that you can't lose sight that the stew is not a single ingredient.

                          It seems to me the folks who find flaws in a film so they can say "Johnny Finnegan jumped of the Brooklyn Bridge, so it's okay for me to do it" rather than study a film to find the flaws and positive elements to learn how to improve their own screenplays are on the wrong track.

                          You can't focus only on the poor quality ingedients in the stew and ignore the rest of the ingredients that made it taste great.

                          If you only look for the negative, you miss the positives.

                          - Bill
                          Last edited by wcmartell; 04-10-2011, 01:31 PM.
                          Free Script Tips:
                          http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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                          • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

                            Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                            If you only look for the negative, you miss the positives.
                            Totally agree! A vital part of the learning process.

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                            • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

                              Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                              No - I'm saying that when you have a stew, and despite your best efforts, one (or more) of the ingedients isn't of the best quality, the other ingredients may taste so good that nobody notices. That doesn't mean you *try* to make bad stew, or cut corners by buying month old meat, or whatever - just that you can't lose sight that the stew is not a single ingredient.

                              It seems to me the folks who find flaws in a film so they can say "Johnny Finnegan jumped of the Brooklyn Bridge, so it's okay for me to do it" rather than study a film to find the flaws and positive elements to learn how to improve their own screenplays are on the wrong track.

                              You can't focus only on the poor quality ingedients in the stew and ignore the rest of the ingredients that made it taste great.

                              If you only look for the negative, you miss the positives.

                              - Bill
                              I don't eat stews with turds floating in them. Whatever the bad ingredient(s), this tasted terrible.
                              Looking to take the "Bono" off my screenname.

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                              • Re: SALT kicks ass (might be mild spoilers - though I tried not)

                                Maybe it just had too much SALT?
                                "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

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