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Old 03-31-2010, 08:20 PM   #141
asjah8
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

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Frank's not the one in the ring fighting. Frank's not the one riding the bus home, longing to have a better life. Frank's not the one trying to support his family. Frank's not the one doing anything except trying to help the protagonist achieve her goal.

Sure, Frank may have struggles of his own and might even arc, but it's not his story.
hehe... we disagree and that's cool.

protagonist's actions can be as subtle as a web of protective self-defense mechanisms to avoid being hurt. and antagonist derives from antagonize.

maggie wasn't trying to support her family, she didn't even like her family. and frank didn't want to help her; he wanted her out of his gym through the first act. he turned her down several times until she had antagonized him so persistently, that he gave in. up to that point, she was using a workout ball that eddie gave her against frankie's wishes.

over to casablanca or shawshank or... where were we?
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Old 03-31-2010, 08:47 PM   #142
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

Just finished rereading Casablanca, and certain lines still brought tears.

The logline must contain what Rick must do when he gains possession of two letters of transit.

That's what the story is about. Rick must do the right thing with those letters. The love affair, the occupation, the other characters all present obstacles, complications.

The story is about how Rick faces challenges and goes through a series changes.

Rick is the protag, main character, and the one the audience is most attached to and involved with.

P.S. Rick gets the letters and hides them in the Piano P16. When Ugarte is arrested P30, Rick ownes them. What will he do with them? He can use them for his own eventual escape. He can sell them. As the story progresses, he must weigh various options. Lazlo and Ilsa enter P34. Rick and Isla meet P44.
What role will the letters of transet play. What will Rick do with them?

Last edited by jonpiper : 03-31-2010 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 03-31-2010, 11:06 PM   #143
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

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Excellent 2448th post.
what's that i smell? irony? sarcasm?
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Old 03-31-2010, 11:17 PM   #144
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

More like mock laughter.
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:02 AM   #145
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

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The story is about how Rick faces challenges and goes through a series changes.

Rick is the protag, main character, and the one the audience is most attached to and involved with.
I think that's a good point. I'd also add that Rick's internal "flaw" is that he lets no one in, except for HER. We see it throughout the first act how they set this up because if Rick doesn't care about her, then this story never happens.

"Rick never drinks with anyone" and when he's given the LoT, he's still cold and uninvolved. He's mildly impressed when he finds out the soldiers were killed by Ugarte.

But when Laszlo arrives, this makes him react because Victor Laszlo has the one thing that Rick wants: llsa. Prior to his arrival, Rick has a seal between him and everyone. Victor's arrival and his bar draws Rick into the conflict.

So, I'd argue that Laszlo is the antagonist because it's his actions that make Rick react; thus creating the dramatic elements. The external conflict was there all along, but Rick's not involved, he's neutral and it's not until his love for llsa that he is finally pulled into the exteral conflict, imo. The one thing standing in Rick's way is Laszlo.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:28 AM   #146
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So, I'd argue that Laszlo is the antagonist because it's his actions that make Rick react; thus creating the dramatic elements. The external conflict was there all along, but Rick's not involved, he's neutral and it's not until his love for llsa that he is finally pulled into the exteral conflict, imo. The one thing standing in Rick's way is Laszlo.
I'm not convinced.
What good are the LoT to Rick? He can't go where he wants to go - home. He only uses them against Ilsa, refusing to give them up, so getting some kind of revenge on her. The LoT eventually bring Rick and Ilsa to a conflict which resolves Rick's persoanl issues - which I'd argue is Rick's main plan by holding onto them, and getting revenge if the plan doesn't work (he even tells her they're in his pocket when she holds a gun to him, when in fact they're not at all).

I can't see any indication that Rick sees Lazlo as standing in his way of Ilsa. In fact he tries to warn Lazlo that Ilsa may not be the loyal wife he thinks she is. OK - he may be hoping they'll split up, but will that bring Ilsa back, and would he take her back anyway? Also - why does Rick back Lazlo up in the french patriot scene against the Nazis? Rick's a neutral.

I just can't buy Lazlo as being Rick's Antagonist - more the reverse. Rick stands in the way of what Lazlo wants - the LoT. Lazlo is the symbol of a good and noble cause - Rick stands in his way. What does that make Rick? So unless you have two protags and two antags and two storylines, what else is up for grabs?

Last edited by Steven Jenkins : 04-01-2010 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:53 AM   #147
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Casablanca: a Resistance fighter tries to flee the Nazis, but his wife's old lover stands in the way.
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:02 AM   #148
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LOL
Which makes - what? Lazlo the protag, and Rick the MC?

I think I'm going slowly going insane
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:34 AM   #149
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No, no. Clearly Rick is the antagonist of Casablanca.
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:44 AM   #150
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

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No, no. Clearly Rick is the antagonist of Casablanca.
No, no, no. It's Sam! He's like the Keyser Soze of Morocco, only his devious plan fails at the very end.

Think about it. He's always trying to manipulate Rick and Ilsa into getting back together. If that had worked, Rick would have left Casablanca and the bar would be his.

Hell, he was probably working for the Nazis on the side. Bastard!
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