Not the story the reader wants

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  • Not the story the reader wants

    Often (like, quite often: in more than one project) the feedback I get on something I've written that is near and dear to my heart is that the person actually wanted X or Y or Z to happen and they specifically didn't like LMNOP.

    LMNOP is usually the reason I wrote the script/manuscript/shoppinglist/whatever in the first place.

    Generally, they say if two or more people have the same comments you should trust that they are right. Also, I've heard if the feedback you're getting says "Cut X and definitely keep Y" and then the other feedback says "Definitely I love X but cut Y" then you're probably doing okay.

    I totally get the "kill your darlings" thing, but if no one's paying you to write something and you wrote it for the particular element... seems like you should stay true to your vision, right?

    Or is it better to take the advice from strangers who seem to be more interested in a different story.

    I'm kind of feeling NO.
    But is this the difference between those writers who write all those personal, uncommercial stories and those who get picked up?
    Last edited by cvolante; 03-25-2017, 06:14 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Not the story the reader wants

    You shouldn't write something near and dear to your heart, you should be writing something that will sell. That doesn't mean you shouldn't care about what you're writing, but it does mean that you shouldn't write something that you're unwilling to get butchered by others.

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    • #3
      Re: Not the story the reader wants

      I would go the other way with it. You aren't being paid so you can absolutely write what you want. There has to be a certain amount of compromise but you can't write the story that these readers want, you have to write the story that you want. What would be the point of writing a story you yourself aren't interested in?

      If you write something that you hope will sell for a quick buck and you're okay with it being butchered...just no.

      In your specific case it's hard to know if there's any true correct party but you have to write the story that's true to you. After that there may be compromises but you find a way of getting something as close to your vision on the screen. It will be yours. Why would anybody want to hire a writer who doesn't even belief enough in his own idea to fight for it?

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      • #4
        Re: Not the story the reader wants

        So, most of the time, this note means:

        "This script wasn't working for me, so I started daydreaming while I was reading it and I thought maybe XYZ would be a better story."

        But they have no idea what would be a better story. The thing they know is "This script wasn't working for me."

        Everything else is speculation. Even if they're right, even if the script that they're describing would be "objectively" better (not sure what that means) that doesn't mean you could write it, and, in fact, if you don't want to write it, you'd probably do it badly.

        And with all due respect to Entlassen, I think he gave you god-awful advice.

        All the professional success I've had, which, you know, is not a ton but it is some, has come from me writing the things that I wanted to see. It's happened because I deliberately said, "to hell with whatever the market might want, what do I want? The market doesn't need you to give it what it wants - it's got a bunch of people doing that already.

        You don't want to give the market what it wants, you want to SHOW it what it wants.

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        • #5
          Re: Not the story the reader wants

          Thanks.
          Yeah.

          This particular thing is a book I'm self-publishing, so it's a little different. But I do notice a pattern overall.

          One example: people really seem to hate stories that have a "Stockholm syndrome" element. I wrote something that's based on true events and frankly, that's what happened. So that's the story. If people wanna bitch about it, they can go see (read) something else. That's what I found interesting about that particular story...
          Last edited by cvolante; 03-25-2017, 02:56 PM.

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          • #6
            Re: Not the story the reader wants

            That's interesting. What exactly is their issue with the Stockholm Syndrome element? It does happen in the real world, it would be silly to deny that fact.

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            • #7
              Re: Not the story the reader wants

              If you're getting similar notes, it could be a *story* issue, not a taste issue. I'd be looking for character inconsistencies, thematic inconsistencies, plot logic issues, structural issues, lack of peaks and valleys, tension not rising appropriately to the climax (peaking too soon, sequences that suck all the momentum out, not rising quick enough, etc).

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              • #8
                Re: Not the story the reader wants

                i've said something similar before on this board, circa 2002, maybe, maybe 1887, but sometimes it may help after receiving feedback and reading rejections to go fishing. but not the kind of fishing where you're in a boat or standing dry on a bank. no no. the kind of fishing where you're in the water with the fish. you feel the cold, feel the current pushing you, feel the shifting bottom under your feet, etc. if you could just get your lure across the river or creek under that low-hanging tree limb on the other side of that rock...it's all sort of like writing. if you could just make that long cast, without getting hung up in that tree. you waded all morning to get to such a spot. writing is the same except in writing you can just sit in front of a screen thinking about writing. if you just fished, you smell like the water you were just in. you can describe that smell maybe a little better from people fishing from the bank. maybe you can even tell a little better fishing story.

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                • #9
                  Re: Not the story the reader wants

                  Originally posted by cvolante View Post
                  Often (like, quite often: in more than one project) the feedback I get on something I've written that is near and dear to my heart is that the person actually wanted X or Y or Z to happen and they specifically didn't like LMNOP.

                  LMNOP is usually the reason I wrote the script/manuscript/shoppinglist/whatever in the first place.

                  Generally, they say if two or more people have the same comments you should trust that they are right. Also, I've heard if the feedback you're getting says "Cut X and definitely keep Y" and then the other feedback says "Definitely I love X but cut Y" then you're probably doing okay.

                  I totally get the "kill your darlings" thing, but if no one's paying you to write something and you wrote it for the particular element... seems like you should stay true to your vision, right?

                  Or is it better to take the advice from strangers who seem to be more interested in a different story.

                  I'm kind of feeling NO.
                  But is this the difference between those writers who write all those personal, uncommercial stories and those who get picked up?
                  The question that a writer often doesn't want to ask in this situation but really needs to ask is why the reader (or the audience), having started to read what you've written, ends up wanting the story to go in a very different direction from the direction that you have ended up taking it.

                  Every time we start reading or watching any story, that story, from the outset, begins to create expectations. We are always trying to figure out where the story is going. We start to tell it in our heads, imagine how it's all going to go. That tension/interaction between the story as it actually unfolds and the story that we're imagining in our heads is central to an audience's ongoing connection to the story.

                  But problems start happening when the story that they imagine not only veers sharply away from the story you're telling, but when they liked that story (the story in their heads) better. Obviously it's fine if they like your story more. That's the idea. That's at the heart of misdirection, of the process of making an audience think that one thing is going to happen and then surprising them.

                  But the larger point is this. They always tell a trial lawyer that he should never ask a question unless he already knows the answer.

                  In the same way, you, as a storyteller, should never create an expectation in the mind of a reader unless you are, in some way, going to satisfy that expectation.

                  So the question you really have to ask when the reader is disappointed that your story didn't go "X, Y, and Z," rather than, L, M, N, O, P, is -- what was in the story that made them want X, Y, and Z. What was it that created the expectation that that was going to happen so that they ended up disappointed when it didn't.

                  Let me put it this way. It's not their job to want to read your story. It's your job to make them want to read it. It's your job to manage their expectations as your write so that they "want" L,M,N,O,P.

                  If half your readers start at the beginning of the script and end up expecting one sort of movie and get it and they feel satisfied but the other half expect a different sort of script and end up feeling cheated -- then that's a problem.

                  Of course, it's always possible that some readers are simply not going to be engaged by some material, no matter what the treatment. Over the years I've gotten great coverage and terrible coverage on the same scripts so you never can tell.

                  But maybe what I've talked about above is what you have to ask yourself.

                  NMS

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                  • #10
                    Re: Not the story the reader wants

                    I believe in what NMStevens is saying. If it were me, I would think I'm not giving them a good enough version of LMNOP to make them not care about XYZ.

                    I find that most times after talking to a writer about their script in depth, they realize there weren't as deep into the material as they thought. There were opportunities to wrench up the conflict and they didn't take it.

                    The unproduced material I read really concentrates on the emotions of the character and whatever plot there is dangles in the b.g. Good screenplays do the reverse.

                    I've read scripts from writers on three different continents, from LA, from East Coast. Everyone of them has a sentence like, 'so and so weeps, a broken man.'

                    My advice would be to explore X,Y,Z and really ask yourself if it is a better story. If it is not, you'll need a better version of LMNOP.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Not the story the reader wants

                      Originally posted by AnconRanger View Post
                      i've said something similar before on this board, circa 2002, maybe, maybe 1887, but sometimes it may help after receiving feedback and reading rejections to go fishing.
                      A little off topic, but this reminded me of screenwriter David Seidler (the Kings Speech), who does just that. I love it when writers talk about their process.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z43xej7evbk

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                      • #12
                        Re: Not the story the reader wants

                        Originally posted by nmstevens View Post
                        It's not their job to want to read your story. It's your job to make them want to read it.
                        I think nmstevens sums it up beautifully in that post.

                        You had a vision and it didn't land as you hoped. That doesn't mean you have to do it the way your reader wants, or start over, but that perhaps you just need to write it better, to fix what didn't work.

                        It is interesting that you had more than one person who wanted something different. Obviously if everyone of us read it, we could all come up with a new direction. Can you both satisfy your vision and still make this work for the reader? That's your challenge right? If you try to make this into the story your reader wants, how can that possibly not show? How can you be passionate about their vision?

                        If you were to ask yourself in all honest, "is this amazing? is this as good as it could possibly be?" what would you answer?

                        Like the great Ronaldinho once said, "You don't want to give the market what it wants, you want to SHOW it what it wants." Your readers don't have a story to tell, they just want you to make yours compelling to them.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Not the story the reader wants

                          cool stuff, figment.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Not the story the reader wants

                            Originally posted by cvolante View Post
                            One example: people really seem to hate stories that have a "Stockholm syndrome" element. I wrote something that's based on true events and frankly, that's what happened. So that's the story. If people wanna bitch about it, they can go see (read) something else. That's what I found interesting about that particular story...
                            Except "people" apparently don't want to read your story -- it's not interesting to them. Which means you don't have the opportunity to really share the events that piqued your interest. Like NMS said: it's your job to make them want to read the story (that you want to tell).

                            Reality is frequently uninteresting, and highly variable depending on personal tastes. Some real events are interesting enough on their own, but sometimes you to find something universal (meaning: something many people can relate to) to wrap your true events around, to have a story.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Not the story the reader wants

                              Most often, it's not so much that people don't like it when X or Y element is in the script, so much as they're tired of seeing it done the same way. So I would guess that the problem isn't that your story includes Stockholm Syndrome, so much as you're using Stockholm Syndrome in a way that isn't particularly surprising.

                              This is without having read the script or the notes in question, of course. I've just noticed that the times when I start wishing the story would go in XYZ direction, it's usually because I think I can see something less interesting coming.

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