Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

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  • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

    Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
    How can that be? I mean, there's got to be well over 600 tags possible and "High Concept" isn't one of them.
    Probably because everyone would want to tag their script as "High Concept" whether it actually was or not

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    • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
      If it makes people feel any better, think of the #s like this:

      9-10 - Recommend
      8 - Consider
      1-7 Pass, in varying degrees
      This makes me feel better if this is how the readers are instructed to think of the numbers. If they're not told to use this scale, then the scale is meaningless.
      This is essentially what I attempted to say. There should be some universal definition of each one of the numbers on the 1-10 scale for the benefit of the readers and the writers AND the industry pros.

      As I stated, one reader may think an "8" is a recommend another may think it's a consider.

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      • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

        Originally posted by Jai Brandon View Post
        I see the arguments for both sides: for and against using an unspecified numerical rubric. However, I'm not so sure the issue is with the 1-10 scale; rather, I think it has to do with comments that fail to coincide with that scale. I've complained about this myself in the past, so to allay any cynicism, I'd urge Franklin to instruct his readers to temper their praise.
        Using two examples from JL's script, this is where the disconnect lies for most (low scoring) BL consumers:



        Franklin, if your readers gave feedback that coincided with their personal numerical rubrics, I think you'd have even less complaints than the 1.6% you alluded to earlier. I also think many of the naysayers wouldn't have a platform to stand on...
        If you're going to base your evaluation of the scores on excerpts from a review instead of the review in total, I'm not sure we're going to be able to make you happy. Furthermore, the second quote you use from the overall 6 evaluation is from its commercial prospects which the readers are explicitly guided not to include as part of their overall rating consideration.

        Comment


        • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

          Originally posted by Rochjeff View Post
          This is essentially what I attempted to say. There should be some universal definition of each one of the numbers on the 1-10 scale for the benefit of the readers and the writers AND the industry pros.

          As I stated, one reader may think an "8" is a recommend another may think it's a consider.
          Anybody want to call the over/under on how fast the thread about the universal definitions would start the second we claimed them.

          The scale is 1-10. And again, an 8 is neither a recommend nor a consider in any real sense. It means that on a scale of 1-10, the reader would be that likely to recommend it to a peer or superior in the industry. Nothing more. Nothing less.

          I offered that guidance for those who insist on understanding it through that rubric, but our readers are not instructed to rate based on a PCR basis, nor will they ever be.

          If you're not comfortable with that scoring system, you probably shouldn't be giving us your money. I'm okay with that.

          Comment


          • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

            Thank you to @wrytnow for sharing this blog post re: Jeff Lowell's experiment on Reddit:

            http://slugthelines.blogspot.com/201...xperiment.html

            Comment


            • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

              After reading the majority of this thread, I just have 3 observations:

              1) I will NEVER start an online business.

              2) Franklin, dude, I don't know how you do it. You respond with the most intelligent, comprehensive, well-thought out answers, over and over again. I definitely commend you for that. I certainly know I can't do what you do. If I ever meet you in person, first rounds on me.

              3) Jeff, still looking forward to seeing updates on both your discounted review and whether or not something happens with the producer. I think it's awesome that you did this. Thanks for posting about your experience (and going undercover).

              Comment


              • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                Originally posted by IGetsBuckets View Post
                After reading the majority of this thread, I just have 3 observations:

                1) I will NEVER start an online business.
                Pretty sure my experience isn't in any way representative. Don't count yourself out.

                Originally posted by IGetsBuckets View Post
                2) Franklin, dude, I don't know how you do it. You respond with the most intelligent, comprehensive, well-thought out answers, over and over again. I definitely commend you for that. I certainly know I can't do what you do. If I ever meet you in person, first rounds on me.
                Questions are legitimate, as I said in the post I made when we launched, The What, the How, and the Why of the Black List: The Long Answer. This realm has long been inhabited primarily by folks who conducted their business with less than ideal ethics. We aim to change that by embracing both transparency and active communication with our customers and skeptics (here and elsewhere).

                Also, we gave a great deal of thought to how this was constructed and have made tweaks along the way when we thought it could be improved. From the beginning, it was explicitly designed to be a tide that could raise all boats, but especially the boats of writers doing great work.

                Originally posted by IGetsBuckets View Post
                3) Jeff, still looking forward to seeing updates on both your discounted review and whether or not something happens with the producer. I think it's awesome that you did this. Thanks for posting about your experience (and going undercover).
                Ditto. I'm sure it will beget plenty of additional threads.

                Comment


                • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                  "Fundamentally disagree.

                  An exceptional reader with a great deal of experience may have developed a varied and deep enough knowledge base to deliver insightful notes across all genres, but there's a big difference between what makes a horror film work and what makes a romantic comedy work. Sure there's overlap, even significant overlap, but there's definitely specialized knowledge involved in each genre. There's absolutely no need to put a writer at a disadvantage by having a reader read a script they're likely to be predisposed against when it can be avoided.

                  That's why our readers aren't asked to read genres in which they have no interest. At a minimum, we try to give the writer the best opportunity to have their script liked."

                  Franklin, I'm amazed. When I read for a huge entertainment conglom, I didn't have the luxury of saying hey, give me only comedy, give me only horror. I read EVERYTHING they gave me, regardless of genre, and gave damn good notes. One script I recommended (of a handful I did) went on to win an Oscar (albeit changed a lot, but at least I could see the premise had potential). If I had said no, I don't want to read a foreign drama about a black guy in the ghetto, I would have missed out on a brilliant script. Same thing when I read for a contest, etc.

                  This is how I cut my teeth. This is how I was able to discern what was good, what was bad, what worked, what didn't. Even taking into account genres and subject matter that were out of my comfort zone.

                  Yes, we will have to fundamentally disagree on this one.
                  Last edited by LIMAMA; 02-09-2014, 09:07 PM. Reason: me
                  http://www.pjmcilvaine.com/

                  Comment


                  • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                    Originally posted by LIMAMA View Post
                    "Fundamentally disagree.

                    An exceptional reader with a great deal of experience may have developed a varied and deep enough knowledge base to deliver insightful notes across all genres, but there's a big difference between what makes a horror film work and what makes a romantic comedy work. Sure there's overlap, even significant overlap, but there's definitely specialized knowledge involved in each genre. There's absolutely no need to put a writer at a disadvantage by having a reader read a script they're likely to be predisposed against when it can be avoided.

                    That's why our readers aren't asked to read genres in which they have no interest. At a minimum, we try to give the writer the best opportunity to have their script liked."

                    Franklin, I'm amazed. When I read for a huge entertainment conglom, I didn't have the luxury of saying hey, give me only comedy, give me only horror. I read EVERYTHING they gave me, regardless of genre, and gave damn good notes. One script I recommended (of a handful I did) went on to win an Oscar (albeit changed a lot, but at least I could see the premise had potential). If I had said no, I don't want to read a foreign drama about a black guy in the ghetto, I would have missed out on a brilliant script. Same thing when I read for a contest, etc.

                    This is how I cut my teeth. This is how I was able to discern what was good, what was bad, what worked, what didn't. Even taking into account genres and subject matter that were out of my comfort zone.

                    Yes, we will have to fundamentally disagree on this one.
                    It's largely irrelevant whether you would have missed out on a great script. The process isn't about the readers getting to read great scripts that they wouldn't have otherwise, it's about the material and optimally filtering amongst it.

                    Obviously you were omnivorous in your abilities, but the fact of the matter is most readers aren't, and even those who are have areas where they're stronger than others, and we're taking advantage of that reality.

                    Again, "it's always been done that way" isn't a mark in anything's favor in my point of view. Far more important is the question, "SHOULD it be done that way?" If the question is assigning horror scripts to a romantic comedy aficionado, we quite confidently think that it shouldn't be.
                    Last edited by FranklinLeonard; 02-09-2014, 09:19 PM.

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                    • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                      FL hasn't left his keyboard for 3 days! His stamina in answering the same questions over and over is very impressive.

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                      • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                        Well, I'd have to ponder whether or not a reader can become "a romantic comedy aficionado" with a year or two experience reading scripts professionally. But I'll table that.

                        To answer your "Should" question my answer is, "Yes. They should." They need to be well-rounded if they're judging work. Because you'd best believe skilled writers are well rounded and draw from many wells to create their scripts.

                        Otherwise you're saying the reader who is a romantic comedy aficionado is incapable of recognizing the talent in the next Godfather or Matrix because it's not their specialty.
                        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                        Comment


                        • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                          Originally posted by Jai Brandon View Post
                          I see the arguments for both sides: for and against using an unspecified numerical rubric. However, I'm not so sure the issue is with the 1-10 scale; rather, I think it has to do with comments that fail to coincide with that scale. I've complained about this myself in the past, so to allay any cynicism, I'd urge Franklin to instruct his readers to temper their praise.
                          Using two examples from JL's script, this is where the disconnect lies for most (low scoring) BL consumers:



                          Franklin, if your readers gave feedback that coincided with their personal numerical rubrics, I think you'd have even less complaints than the 1.6% you alluded to earlier. I also think many of the naysayers wouldn't have a platform to stand on...
                          Completely agree. Temper the praise. And it wouldn't hurt to have a section of the reader's comments dedicated to explaining the overall score in a brief one to three sentences. "This script receives a '7' because there are certain aspects that are (blah blah blah) but the script could stand to be (blah blah blah)." That would bring more clarity. With that said, people will still complain, but you can reduce complaints if the reader's comments were more in line with scores.

                          And another thing: When owners/creators of any business make themselves available to engage with customers online, they endure a lot of annoying feedback/criticisms, that's why most of them stay away. There are no victims here. Including those who choose to patron the BL.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                            Well, I'd have to ponder whether or not a reader can become "a romantic comedy aficionado" with a year or two experience reading scripts professionally. But I'll table that.

                            To answer your "Should" question my answer is, "Yes. They should." They need to be well-rounded if they're judging work. Because you'd best believe skilled writers are well rounded and draw from many wells to create their scripts.

                            Otherwise you're saying the reader who is a romantic comedy aficionado is incapable of recognizing the talent in the next Godfather or Matrix because it's not their specialty.
                            Aficionado: "a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about an activity, subject, or pastime."

                            Again, I'd be happy to populate our reader corps with more experienced readers, but the complaint that would follow is that our costs are too high.

                            The fact of the matter is that one year of paid experience as, at least, an assistant wherein reading scripts was a significant part of the job is the MINIMUM required of our readers. Most have more. Many have much, much more. And we've hired fewer than 15% of those who have applied with that minimum of experience.

                            I'm not saying that the romantic comedy aficionado is incapable, I'm saying someone who loves crime films is more likely to identify the next Godfather, and someone who loves science fiction is more likely to identify the next Matrix. I'd rather have them reading romantic comedies and hoping to find the next When Harry Met Sally.

                            Have we really entered the realm where it's a problem that we have our readers read scripts exclusively in genres where they have interest and experience?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                              Originally posted by Rochjeff View Post
                              Completely agree. Temper the praise. And it wouldn't hurt to have a section of the reader's comments dedicated to explaining the overall score in a brief one to three sentences. "This script receives a '7' because there are certain aspects that are (blah blah blah) but the script could stand to be (blah blah blah)." That would bring more clarity. With that said, people will still complain, but you can reduce complaints if reader's comments were more in line with scores.

                              And another thing: When owners/creators of any business make themselves available to engage with customers online, they endure a lot of annoying feedback/criticisms, that's why most of them stay away. There are no victims here. Including those who choose to patron the BL.
                              Our readers do give ratings consistent with their feedback. Most of the writers who complain don't want to accept that the weaknesses are actual weaknesses but believe the strengths absolutely. Funny how that works.

                              As evidence of this, go back and read the old Black List threads. How many people who made this claim actually posted their evaluations? How many who did then recanted their complaints after others assembled told them they were wrong?

                              And again, they're not separate entities. They should be read as a whole.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                                You floated the "Should" question and I threw in my two cents. No harm, o foul.
                                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                                Comment

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