Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

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  • #76
    Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

    Originally posted by grumpywriter View Post
    These debates always remind me of that line from War Games: (Robot/computer voice) "Strange game, the only winning move is not to play."
    Very cool, Professor Falken.
    Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 02-07-2014, 03:23 PM.
    M.A.G.A.

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    • #77
      Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

      Originally posted by Rhodi View Post
      Having had some interaction with industry members thanks to some recent success via the site the consistent feedback I've heard is NOT that the Black List readers are too harsh but rather too easy on scripts. The problem from an industry perspective is not the errant scores of 6 but the unwarranted scores of 8/9/10 that are muddying the waters.

      Those types of scores should indicate that the writer is essentially rep and WGA ready but, if you think about the numbers, I'd assume that 500+ screenplays have been highlighted in the past year's worth of Monday emails (Franklin, please clarify), which in my opinion is far too many.
      Getting the numbers for you and will be happy to share when I do. I'd like to address this complaint though:

      1. It's not 10s they're complaining about. I think 2 have been given by our readers since the site launched.

      2. I doubt seriously that it's 9s they're complaining about either. Those are few and far between as well.

      3. Let's assume there are 500 scripts that have received an 8 or better since the site launched. First, that's less than 5% of the scripts that have been uploaded.

      Further, we're not talking about scripts with an average of 8 or better. We're talking about 500 scripts that at least (and maybe only) one person thinks deserves an 8 or better. The fact that it's that low reflects how generally hard we are on material.

      Industry professionals who believe that we highlight too many scripts have a misconception about subjectivity not all that different from that often expressed here and elsewhere: "My subjective opinion is right, and everyone else's is wrong."

      Also, next time they mention that, ask them what percentage of scripts they receive from the major agencies they'd award an >8 and have them compare it to the percentage they'd award it to from amongst those that one of our readers has given an 8.

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      • #78
        Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

        Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
        True. If Jeff was unlucky enough to have two readers with female lead issues rate his porn script, scoring it both a 6, a writer with PRO-LEVEL QUALITY would have slipped through the cracks. That's unacceptable.
        Doesn't Jeff or any writer face the same situation when submitting to any prodco/management company/agency/studio? Isn't his script subject to the same kind of luck of the subjectivity draw?

        Sure - certain shops have their readers "grade" the writer as well as the script - but based on everything I've read from Franklin (and I hope I'm corrected if I'm wrong) the Black List site isn't a place to feature writers, it's a site that features scripts. If a writer thinks his/her script would get a WRITER-CONSIDER, then direct queries are probably the better avenue.

        I think this experiment is interesting - glad you did it Jeff, thanks for sharing. My experience mirrors yours. High scores/low scores. Some readers connected, some didn't. Unlike you, however, the high scores didn't translate into any interest. That was fine by me - I saw the Black List as one avenue.

        Thankfully other avenues paid off.

        Good luck with the script - maybe porno's the next big thing. (pun intended)

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        • #79
          Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

          Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
          True. If Jeff was unlucky enough to have two readers with female lead issues rate his porn script, scoring it both a 6, a writer with PRO-LEVEL QUALITY would have slipped through the cracks. That's unacceptable.

          I'm not sure if you're aware of it, Franklin, but the vast majority of industry members on the sight do not look at a script with two 6 ratings and think to themselves "Hey, maybe the writer has pro-level skills, but the subject matter didn't click with the reader," all they're thinking is "This writer doesn't have what it takes to play with the big boys."

          I've said this before, but I believe the BL needs a "Recommend Writer" check-box in its reader evaluations.
          Again, our site is not about recommending writers. It's about recommending material written by writers.

          I may regret raising this issue, but there appears to be an undercurrent to this conversation that essentially argues "poorly written female characters isn't sufficient to call into question the quality of a piece of material."

          It's a position that I fundamentally disagree with, especially in the context of a world like the one SHOOT inhabits.

          The reader went into substantial detail about why they believed that the characters were problematic. Other readers may feel differently, but it's an entirely valid subjective criticism.

          I encourage you to re-read the evaluation in full, which Jeff posted. The reader had the following issues, beyond the female characters:

          1. "While ambiguous male leads are in vogue, the script goes a bit too far with some of them. The cafe scene is our first introduction to our main characters, and it centers on them harassing an attractive waitress. Regardless of the the social norms of the time, it starts them in such a negative place that it's hard to recover."

          2. "Also, a lot of the sensibility and perspective of the script feels too modern. Even in the world outside the pornographers, one never gets a sense that things have changed that much--after all, what modern parents wouldn't be dismayed at learning their daughter starred in a porn flick? Since the show's premise hinges on how different things were then, the script should show those differences starkly."

          These aren't comments about not liking the subject matter. These are notes about how the subject matter is treated in the context of a possibly producible television series. They're very different things.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

            Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
            Again, our site is not about recommending writers. It's about recommending material written by writers.

            I may regret raising this issue, but there appears to be an undercurrent to this conversation that essentially argues "poorly written female characters isn't sufficient to call into question the quality of a piece of material."

            It's a position that I fundamentally disagree with, especially in the context of a world like the one SHOOT inhabits.

            The reader went into substantial detail about why they believed that the characters were problematic. Other readers may feel differently, but it's an entirely valid subjective criticism.

            I encourage you to re-read the evaluation in full, which Jeff posted. The reader had the following issues, beyond the female characters:

            1. "While ambiguous male leads are in vogue, the script goes a bit too far with some of them. The cafe scene is our first introduction to our main characters, and it centers on them harassing an attractive waitress. Regardless of the the social norms of the time, it starts them in such a negative place that it's hard to recover."

            2. "Also, a lot of the sensibility and perspective of the script feels too modern. Even in the world outside the pornographers, one never gets a sense that things have changed that much--after all, what modern parents wouldn't be dismayed at learning their daughter starred in a porn flick? Since the show's premise hinges on how different things were then, the script should show those differences starkly."

            These aren't comments about not liking the subject matter. These are notes about how the subject matter is treated in the context of a possibly producible television series. They're very different things.
            Yes, this is mysteriously getting lost in the mix for some strange reason. It's ironic that the people lambasting the reader for their personal feelings on subject matter are doing the same - defending Jeff to the hilt because he's a pro and a DDP reg and not considering for one moment that the reader's review may be valid. As Franklin has pointed out, being a pro doesn't make you infallible.
            M.A.G.A.

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            • #81
              Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

              Well, I have to say I'd love to read it to read Jeff's and be my own tie breaker -- ha.

              One read says it's an "easy recommend," the other says, "the script isn't yet where it could be in every aspect..." I understand this reflects the nature of the industry and it's likely something for which there's no solution.

              But it does go to prove one thing at least to me -- people should refrain from listing their very first script on BL. The standard is clearly higher than most contests.
              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                Well, I have to say I'd love to read it to read Jeff's and be my own tie breaker -- ha.

                One read says it's an "easy recommend," the other says, "the script isn't yet where it could be in every aspect..." I understand this reflects the nature of the industry and it's likely something for which there's no solution.

                But it does go to prove one thing at least to me -- people should refrain from listing their very first script on BL. The standard is clearly higher than most contests.
                I don't think it's as simple as higher or lower (an issue that Greg Beal and I debated in another thread soon after the site was launched.)

                It's just different. We don't care whether it's your first script or if you're Jenji Kohan, and your work is going to be compared against the best work that's being done in the business, not just other folks writing their first scripts.

                At the end of the day, it's about the material. As it should be.

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                • #83
                  Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                  Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
                  The BL looks for pro-level material, but to be able to write at a pro-level (like yourself, Jeff) requires years of industry experience!
                  As others have pointed out, when you're breaking in, you're competing against pros. You've got to take jobs away from them. You're not competing against amateurs.

                  Originally posted by bjamin View Post
                  I do kinda feel bad for the producer who hit you up, though.
                  I'm going to let him know what's up, see if he still wants to try to do something with it.

                  Originally posted by EJ Pennypacker View Post
                  Did you view a lot of porn for research purposes?
                  View it? I got to write it off.

                  Originally posted by The Calculator View Post
                  (Side q for Jeff: How did you feel about the BL after your first review came in, but before the second?)
                  I felt like I'd hit a reviewer's pet peeve, and was curious to see the second review.

                  ---

                  FWIW, I went ahead and bought the discounted tiebreaker review. Just thought as long as we're continuing this experiment, it would be an interesting addition.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                    Good luck with it, Jeff. I'm rootin' 4 ya. : )

                    FYI. Got my score back yesterday= 11
                    Last edited by bjamin; 02-07-2014, 04:42 PM.

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                    • #85
                      Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                      I wanted to address this post by Franklin separately.

                      First off, I didn't ask to have the reader's review pulled, and wouldn't have even if this weren't just an experiment. He/she had clearly read the script attentively and was giving their opinion. Not every script strikes everyone the same way.

                      But that said, my opinion (I get one, too ) is that this reader let one smaller issue drive their verdict on the script. Again, it's human nature, this is a subjective business, etc, etc, etc… But:

                      Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
                      I may regret raising this issue, but there appears to be an undercurrent to this conversation that essentially argues "poorly written female characters isn't sufficient to call into question the quality of a piece of material."

                      It's a position that I fundamentally disagree with, especially in the context of a world like the one SHOOT inhabits.

                      The reader went into substantial detail about why they believed that the characters were problematic. Other readers may feel differently, but it's an entirely valid subjective criticism.

                      I encourage you to re-read the evaluation in full, which Jeff posted. The reader had the following issues, beyond the female characters:

                      1. "While ambiguous male leads are in vogue, the script goes a bit too far with some of them. The cafe scene is our first introduction to our main characters, and it centers on them harassing an attractive waitress. Regardless of the the social norms of the time, it starts them in such a negative place that it's hard to recover."
                      You say this point is "beyond the female characters," but I disagree. The reader is calling the leads into question because of how they treat a female character. This is directly on point with what I think is the reader's issue.

                      2. "Also, a lot of the sensibility and perspective of the script feels too modern. Even in the world outside the pornographers, one never gets a sense that things have changed that much--after all, what modern parents wouldn't be dismayed at learning their daughter starred in a porn flick? Since the show's premise hinges on how different things were then, the script should show those differences starkly."
                      Again, not sure we're "beyond the female characters." This second criticism is once again about how characters treat a female character. And if we're deconstructing the review, what does this point really mean? I have a scene where a porn actress's father disowns her after discovering what she does. I agree - parents today would be upset, too. So what difference should I have drawn? That they weren't upset back then? That they were extra super upset?

                      There are differences between the time periods that I hopefully capture - but as the reader points out, this is something that wouldn't be different. So why point it out as the only example of failing to differentiate?

                      Literally every point of the weaknesses revolved around female characters. And again, this is a male-centric show sent in the porn world. It would be like dinging the Entourage pilot because of the female characters.

                      As a review from a reader? Totally within the realm of what happens to all of our scripts every day.

                      But if I were that reader's boss, and found out that their opinion about the writing was "from beginning to end, this script is extremely compelling, a page-turner and a breeze to read" and that they felt that "it's absolutely an appealing concept that would fit right in as a successor to those shows on either basic or premium cable," I would expect that they'd at least think it was worth passing upstairs for a read. Instead, not one number came in over a 7, so not a "consider" on either the writing or the concept.

                      In my opinion, the reader missed the forest for a single tree.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                        Originally posted by bjamin View Post
                        Got my score back yesterday= 11
                        Hey, me too ...

                        Wait. What? I'm supposed to average not add. Damn, I want a recount.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                          Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                          In my opinion, the reader missed the forest for a single tree.
                          It's sort of eerie but the line "forest for the trees" ran thru my mind just reading the lower scored review. I can't imagine what the reader expected considering the time period. The more I think about this concept the more I'm digging it. Even with my feminist cap on I can see the potential for exploring themes re sexual revolution/women's rights of the time period that I feel Mad Men has sometimes ignored or fumbled. And Masters of Sex could always hide behind the premise of science.

                          Setting it in the porn world is really smart IMO. If both readers had felt the same as the one who got hung up on the single tree, the script would likely be ignored. I understand Franklin's points 100%. I understand it's the nature of the biz. It's just that idealistic part of me which wonders ... what if.
                          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                          • #88
                            Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                            Jeff, which came first, the producer email or the reviews?

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                            • #89
                              Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                              @tinlizzie

                              yeah. how do y'all get your reviews back? Email? They sent a beautiful, eagle-winged mermaid on a horse with monster wheels for legs to deliver mine. The score was emblazoned on diamond encrusted jewel. A big sparkly one. So... never give up. : )


                              *this response sounded much better in my head.
                              Last edited by bjamin; 02-07-2014, 05:23 PM.

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                              • #90
                                Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                                Originally posted by Richmond Weems View Post
                                Jeff, which came first, the producer email or the reviews?
                                Producer email. He downloaded based on logline.

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