Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

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  • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

    Originally posted by Geoff Alexander View Post
    >>Originally Posted by JeffLowell
    As a review from a reader? Totally within the realm of what happens to all of our scripts every day.<<

    >It happens in the industry and the Blacklist is part of the industry, so it happens on the Blacklist. End of story.<

    Here is where I have a different opinion. I think that the BL should mimic the industry to an extent, but not completely. Yes, in the industry people pass on scripts that are good because they just don't like the subject matter and because they know their own company wouldn't make the project, so, because they want to crap on the subject matter they may not refer the script.

    But the BL seems to be designed to promote the exposure of scripts based on quality (would you pass this on to a peer being the bar), i.e., to matchmake.

    It seems to me that the readers need to not only put politics aside, but need to ask this of every script: "Could there be a legitimate place in the industry for this script? Could it get made?"

    If the answer is yes, then it needs to trump personal taste, because that's what the BL needs to do better than the industry.

    The reader failed, IMO. The criticisms were too minor to warrant that kind of score if the strengths were so overwhelming. If the script was well executed enough and could conceivably have a shot in the industry, then it needs to be an 8 or better, because that person should be passing it along to peers, even if they're not comfortable with it.

    Personally, I'd have a talk with the reader about that.
    +1

    I was thinking the same but it sounds more valid coming from you than a wannabe like me.
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

    Comment


    • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

      Originally posted by Geoff Alexander View Post
      But the BL seems to be designed to promote the exposure of scripts based on quality (would you pass this on to a peer being the bar), i.e., to matchmake.

      It seems to me that the readers need to not only put politics aside, but need to ask this of every script: "Could there be a legitimate place in the industry for this script? Could it get made?"

      If the answer is yes, then it needs to trump personal taste, because that's what the BL needs to do better than the industry.
      You have a point. As a complete amateur, I didn't think about the fact that industry readers are gearing their evaluation towards their company, clients or boss. Something the BL readers shouldn't do.

      That said, if we all agree that a 6 and a 9 don't equal a 7.5, but do indicate that a script may be polarizing, isn't that useful information for an industry pro to have as s/he decides whether or not to take the time to read? Note: I'm truly asking this as more than a rhetorical question - I certainly don't know enough to know the answer.

      If yes, then I would argue that the 6 is as it should be - even if it is subjective or skewed - because it provides that very information.

      Wow, I think I just argued that a "wrong" review is actually "right" since others might get it "wrong" too. Somebody do a logic diagram of that. Or maybe I should just shut up now.

      Comment


      • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

        Originally posted by Geoff Alexander View Post

        It seems to me that the readers need to not only put politics aside, but need to ask this of every script: "Could there be a legitimate place in the industry for this script? Could it get made?"

        If the answer is yes, then it needs to trump personal taste, because that's what the BL needs to do better than the industry.
        This makes sense. Because a reviewer recommending it to an industry peer denotes personal taste.

        If a reader's scoring is more of -- Can this get made? -- that's something different.

        I had a baseball comedy up last year and in the reader's "Prospects" said: "Script X is basically Major League on a smaller scale with a narrower focus, and that's very much a compliment." The reader then proceeded to give it a 6, ensuring no one would download it -- and no one did. If its "better" than a movie that made a ton of money -- it seems the score should alert industry folks to it.

        I posted the entire review in a different thread last year -- and got the "if-the-reader-wouldn't-recommend-it-to-a-peer, then-the-score-reflects-that" answer.

        But, you'd have to redo the current scoring system ethos in order to have a Can This Get Made? approach.

        While that sounds helpful to the writer -- the question then becomes, would that make the BL less effective by automatically skewing the scoring higher across the board?

        Comment


        • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

          Late to the party, but I'm glad Jeff's script is getting the attention it deserves, that lame reader notwithstanding. I had a similar experience with my own scripts on the BL, which is why I would think long and hard before posting anything there again. When I mentioned my concerns on my first review to Franklin, we basically agreed to disagree. As I've said before, one script of mine that got optioned last year would have bombed on the BL (which is why I didn't list it there). I knew it, and I wasn't going to waste good money.

          Geoff's words were right on the mark.

          Last edited by LIMAMA; 02-08-2014, 01:08 PM. Reason: me who else
          http://www.pjmcilvaine.com/

          Comment


          • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

            Originally posted by Geoff Alexander View Post
            >>Originally Posted by JeffLowell
            As a review from a reader? Totally within the realm of what happens to all of our scripts every day.<<

            >It happens in the industry and the Blacklist is part of the industry, so it happens on the Blacklist. End of story.<

            Here is where I have a different opinion. I think that the BL should mimic the industry to an extent, but not completely. Yes, in the industry people pass on scripts that are good because they just don't like the subject matter and because they know their own company wouldn't make the project, so, because they want to crap on the subject matter they may not refer the script.

            But the BL seems to be designed to promote the exposure of scripts based on quality (would you pass this on to a peer being the bar), i.e., to matchmake.

            It seems to me that the readers need to not only put politics aside, but need to ask this of every script: "Could there be a legitimate place in the industry for this script? Could it get made?"

            If the answer is yes, then it needs to trump personal taste, because that's what the BL needs to do better than the industry.

            The reader failed, IMO. The criticisms were too minor to warrant that kind of score if the strengths were so overwhelming. If the script was well executed enough and could conceivably have a shot in the industry, then it needs to be an 8 or better, because that person should be passing it along to peers, even if they're not comfortable with it.

            Personally, I'd have a talk with the reader about that.
            There's a logical leap here that I dispute:

            "But the BL seems to be designed to promote the exposure of scripts based on quality (would you pass this on to a peer being the bar), i.e., to matchmake."

            Matchmaking is about matching people to things (in this case, scripts) that they will like, which is subjective and involves personal taste. Evaluating based on quality is a different thing and assumes an objective standard (in this case, of art), a fundamental premise that we reject.

            Moreover, I don't believe that it's possible for any reader (literally, any reader) to know the minds of our over 2300 industry professional members or the industry generally.

            I do believe that each reader can know their own mind, and that's what we ask of them.

            What we do is hire readers with real industry experience and strong critical and analytical writing skills who further indicate an ability to evaluate material with integrity. If they fail to do so, they no longer read for us.

            Where we improve on the industry, in my opinion, is to provide a marketplace with less friction and more perfect information (perfect is an intentional reference to Adam Smith here). Moreover, the inclusion of personal taste (again, returning to our fundamental premise that all evaluation of art is subjective and therefore involves personal taste) allows our recommendation algorithm to be far more powerful from a matchmaking perspective.

            I should remind everyone as well that the quantitative ratings and qualitative ratings should be taken together as an indication of the reader's impressions of the script.

            Comment


            • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

              Originally posted by tinlizzie View Post
              You have a point. As a complete amateur, I didn't think about the fact that industry readers are gearing their evaluation towards their company, clients or boss. Something the BL readers shouldn't do.

              That said, if we all agree that a 6 and a 9 don't equal a 7.5, but do indicate that a script may be polarizing, isn't that useful information for an industry pro to have as s/he decides whether or not to take the time to read? Note: I'm truly asking this as more than a rhetorical question - I certainly don't know enough to know the answer.

              If yes, then I would argue that the 6 is as it should be - even if it is subjective or skewed - because it provides that very information.

              Wow, I think I just argued that a "wrong" review is actually "right" since others might get it "wrong" too. Somebody do a logic diagram of that. Or maybe I should just shut up now.
              I'd tweak this a bit.

              For one, our readers aren't reading with a specific boss in mind, and they're definitely not reading based on what their current or former companies may buy. Again, the instruction is simple: Rate the script based on your likelihood of recommending it to a peer or superior in the industry.

              Point is, a 9 and a 6 are representative of two legitimate points of view about the script based on having read it in full and closely. Both are valuable from a data perspective in terms of assessing what this script is, how it is likely to be received by the industry at large, and other individuals who may like it (or not like it.) Neither on their own is sufficient, and frankly, more evaluations would give us an even more precise sense of all of the things I mention in the previous sentence. Ultimately, we leave it to the writer to decide how many evaluations they'd like.
              Last edited by FranklinLeonard; 02-08-2014, 01:32 PM.

              Comment


              • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                Originally posted by LIMAMA View Post
                Late to the party, but I'm glad Jeff's script is getting the attention it deserves, that lame reader notwithstanding. I had a similar experience with my own scripts on the BL, which is why I would think long and hard before posting anything there again. When I mentioned my concerns on my first review to Franklin, we basically agreed to disagree. As I've said before, one script of mine that got optioned last year would have bombed on the BL (which is why I didn't list it there). I knew it, and I wasn't going to waste good money.

                Geoff's words were right on the mark.

                Due respect and you're entitled to your opinion, but the claim that your script would have bombed on the Black List is pure speculation based on precious little evidence. A very wide range of scripts have found success on the site.

                Comment


                • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                  Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                  Franklin, could it be possible that the reader did get it wrong and that it isn't just their opinion? Have you asked the reader about it or are you simply backing them as a good employer would?
                  I've read the script. I stand by their evaluation as a legitimate point of view on its content.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                    Originally posted by figment View Post
                    I had a baseball comedy up last year and in the reader's "Prospects" said: "Script X is basically Major League on a smaller scale with a narrower focus, and that's very much a compliment." The reader then proceeded to give it a 6, ensuring no one would download it -- and no one did. If its "better" than a movie that made a ton of money -- it seems the score should alert industry folks to it.
                    Sorry, where are you interpreting that the reader thought it was "better" than Major League? If the criteria had been "could this be made today?" I'd argue that having strong similarities to a 25-year-old comedy would have netted you worse score than a 6. The industry, not to mention the audience, has changed significantly since 1989.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                      To address Geoff's point directly, I'd much rather a system where reader taste govern the types of scripts that garner exposure than the increasingly narrow criteria of what constitutes a "makeable" Hollywood film.

                      What I would argue is that there is a simple way to monitor and calibrate reader's tastes and that is to regularly test how well aligned their scores are to those of other readers and industry members. The occasional outlier is bound to occur but if a reader is consistently giving scores 3+ difference from the industry mean then that may be something that warrants further investigation.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                        I posted a pilot on TBL last week and received a 6 overall. The comments were kind of a mixed bag. I didn't take the reader's negative comments to heart. It's one person's opinion. But, there were a couple comments that absolutely made no sense to me.

                        One of the comments was that my pilot does not have "legs". Which makes absolutely no sense. I have no less than 15 people read and give me notes on the pilot (some pro writers, peers, and highly reputable consultants). No one has said that my pilot didn't have legs. That's actually the opposite of what everyone else said.

                        There were a couple more comments that just did not make sense to me, but that's the nature of the beast. I just purchased another review...we'll see how it goes.

                        I have to remind myself that this business is completely subjective and one of the keys to success is the ability to discern when someone is providing you with valuable constructive criticism and when they are off base.

                        Some people will absolutely adore your material and some will be indifferent or just hate it. It's all about getting the right eyes on the right material.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                          Point is, a 9 and a 6 are representative of two legitimate points of view about the script based on having read it in full and closely. Both are valuable from a data perspective in terms of assessing what this script is, how it is likely to be received by the industry at large, and other individuals who may like it (or not like it.)
                          As the guy who wrote the script in question, I agree with this 100%. Do I personally think the reader carried baggage? Yep. Do I think that all readers/actors/execs/directors/producers/etc do? Yep.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                            Originally posted by Rochjeff View Post
                            One of the comments was that my pilot does not have "legs". Which makes absolutely no sense. I have no less than 15 people read and give me notes on the pilot (some pro writers, peers, and highly reputable consultants). No one has said that my pilot didn't have legs. That's actually the opposite of what everyone else said.
                            I haven't read the review or the pilot, obviously, but what the comment appears to refer to is your failure to demonstrate that the material could be extended over multiple episodes or seasons. Did you include a show bible? A brief summary of upcoming episodes/seasons?

                            On a similar note, can we have a moratorium on people posting partial pull quotes from their Black List reviews and complaining about them? At least Jeff had the courage to post his reviews in full.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                              Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
                              Moreover, I don't believe that it's possible for any reader (literally, any reader) to know the minds of our over 2300 industry professional members or the industry generally.

                              I do believe that each reader can know their own mind, and that's what we ask of them.

                              What we do is hire readers with real industry experience and strong critical and analytical writing skills who further indicate an ability to evaluate material with integrity. If they fail to do so, they no longer read for us.

                              Where we improve on the industry, in my opinion, is to provide a marketplace with less friction and more perfect information (perfect is an intentional reference to Adam Smith here). Moreover, the inclusion of personal taste (again, returning to our fundamental premise that all evaluation of art is subjective and therefore involves personal taste) allows our recommendation algorithm to be far more powerful from a matchmaking perspective.

                              I should remind everyone as well that the quantitative ratings and qualitative ratings should be taken together as an indication of the reader's impressions of the script.
                              Agree with all of this. As a reader, I saw plenty of scripts that had competent structure, adequate characters, premises that could support a movie. So yes, in an objective sense, they might have done everything "right." So in that B-average sense, you might make a case that this deserves a full consider.

                              Here's where the X-factor comes in. This is where your vote is putting your own credibility on the line and saying "This is worth making time to read." Let me tell you something, when you are in a position to tell that to a busy person in power and you are accountable to them when they come back after investing some of their precious time reading it, your "I guess it deserves a shot" attitude will disappear. FAST.

                              My bosses knew when I gave a Consider that I wouldn't be backpedaling on my opinions if they read it and pressed me on it. And when I gave a STRONG CONSIDER, they knew I was more than just engaged with the script, I was impressed by it.

                              CONSIDER WITH RESERVATIONS is the rating that readers use for scripts that leave them thinking "This does a lot right, but I can't see moving this to the top of your stack. Potential, maybe. But it's not in your starting lineup."

                              Let's say the exec I'm submitting that to happens to read the logline and decides "Hmmm... that actually sounds rather interesting." CWR lets them know that there's more good there than bad. They could read my coverage, see the issues that led me to knock it down and decide for themselves, "Hmmm.. the female characters thing isn't terrible for me so long as the rest really knocks it out of the park."

                              If you're deciding what movie to watch, are you likely to go to a movie that got decent reviews but few gushes, or something like THE LEGO MOVIE, where everyone this week seems to saying "Oh my god! It's amazing!"

                              Passion for the material is essential. After this stage, the script is up against the big boys, competing for one of a relative handful of open slots on studio slates. If you deny a reader an opportunity to express their passion, you have created a system that makes it harder for the really good scripts to stand out, not easier.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Blacklist Secret Shopping Experience

                                From Geoff Alexander:

                                It seems to me that the readers need to not only put politics aside, but need to ask this of every script: "Could there be a legitimate place in the industry for this script? Could it get made?"
                                This, is what I truly hoped/envisioned the BL might yield altogether. But alas, real life practical considerations might make this difficult to attain.

                                Nonetheless, thanks Jeff for initiating this insightful thread.
                                " Don't really like writing. But I do like having written." Vince Gilligan, Breaking Bad.

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