The big talent agencies violate the civil rights laws

[odocoileus]

The EEO complaint won't get any traction, for the reasons stated.

Imagine if it did, though. What would the big three do?

They'd have to agree to read everything that came over the transom. They certainly couldn't afford to do it for free. So they'd have to charge a fee.

There are already umpty zillion contests which do the same thing. Maybe the big three could just contract it out to Atchity.

I just thought of something else vis a vis the claim of disparate impact. Leading minority and women novelists and playwrights get read at big agencies easily enough.

So all you have to do is write a Pulitzer winning play, or a best selling novel. Or maybe develop a hit standup comedy routine. Wanda Sykes could probably get read at any of the big three anytime she wanted.

So, it's easy. Nothing to it.

[JackBNimble]

"Why does leveling the playing field SCARE you so much?"

You're so silly, SC. Your notion of a level playing field is based on goverment coercion of individuals and organizations to start behaving in a certain way for the greater social good...because we all have flaws and prejudices and cannot be trusted to make the right decisions. Hence, fascist. I can't help but feel that in your neo-fascist world, white male vagina lovers would be the new minorities.

"What you fail to consider is that seeded in your outrage is the ASSUMPTION that women and minorities are less talented. That in itself is a bias."

Wow...what a talent you have to read the subtext of my post and know exactly what I'm thinking. I guess if someone's not waving the red flag of support, they must be against you and minorities and women and pygmies and hermaphordites and latinos who specialize in picking grapes, but not oranges, etc. So absurd.

If no blacks, women, or gays found any success in Hollywood, you would have a case. But hey...a gay man just won an oscar for the best screenplay.

[Mac H.]

First, when I hear phrases like Sig Heil I tend to sense anger

But that doesn't really help your argument .. you had both talked about the feeling of anger in the responses BEFORE that post. Where was it? (This is a serious question, by the way. I'm always interested how we all interprete words differently)

And I still don't see how the telemarketing analogy breaks down.

After all, the buyer (me) has disporportionate bias in people I know and would 'take referals' from, so that is something 100% identical in the situation.

Both situation situations are the same .. the buyer is telling the telemarketer/writer 'you need a referral from a group of people ... and this group is not proportionate for all ethnic groups'.

Like Odo, I also don't see what you visualise is the end-game.

Do you honestly want your agent to be forced to read every item of junk mail or every screenplay proposal .. and not be permitted to give your material any more time than anything else?

If you recommended a good writer to your agent, would you honestly expect your agent to say "Sorry - If act like I respect your opinion and recommendation, then I might get sued?"

Mac

[JackBNimble]

"If I call up an agent that reps novelists, and ask if I can send in a query, the agent who reps novelists will say okay, send it in."

Wow...is it really that easy? Any agent who reps novelists will say "yes." Sheeeeet...I'm writing in the wrong medium.

And about the Sig Heil...it's too bad that you can't differentiate between anger and my annoyance with left wing arrogance that wishes to reshape the biz to fit their utopian ideal. But I guess that in your world, anyone who doesn't support your pov must be angry, otherwise they would surely see the light.

Anyway...I'm tired...bored...Done...Good luck. Let me know how it works out. ;-)

[sc111]

Methinks the gentlemen dost protest too much.

Jack be Nimble:

When I post facts showing equal numbers of men and women register for film school. Yet women (of any racial group) are under-represented in the film careers to which they aspire, you make claims that the HW system is a meritocracy.

Can you see that making such a claim shows you believe women are inherently less talented than men?

It has nothing to do with subtext, bubbalah. It's right there for all to see plainly.

Mac:

No, your telephone solicitor analogy is not applicable.

Nynex did not insist agents should BUY his script, he's simply talking about leveling the playing field to get a READ.

To get a READ you need a referral. To get a referral you need CONNECTIONS & CONTACTS with people in power.

When those people in power are members of social strata that is predominately white males, he as a non-white male is far less likely to make contact with them.

He is far less likely to have attended their ivy league schools, to have parents who are friends with their parents, to have been invited to their parties, to be a member of their college fraternity, etc. etc. Anyone with basic logic skills should see the validity of this argument.

[JackBNimble]

There quote Mark Twain. "There are lies, damned lies and statistics."

And yes, I agree with you, SC. If you're connected to the white male power structure and went to the right schools and made the right contacts, you would certainly have an advantage. But your Marxist view of the bourgois and the proletariat is a bit outdated. Strangely, people still end up succeeding in the film biz not being white, rich, or well connected through family or prestigious schools.

I guess I'm happy to be here. Because if I were in Nigeria and trying to succeed in their film biz against the black power structure with their tribal and clan connections, it would really suck for me. Yeah, I know they don't have a film industry. But you get my analogy...I hope.

[sc111]

Originally Posted by JackBNimble

1...yes, I agree with you, SC. If you're connected to the white male power structure and went to the right schools and made the right contacts, you would certainly have an advantage.

2.... Strangely, people (*) still end up succeeding in the film biz not being white, rich, or well connected through family or prestigious schools.

3...Because if I were in Nigeria and trying to succeed in their film biz against the black power structure with their tribal and clan connections, it would really suck for me.

1. Finally. You admit there's a chink in the meritocracy claim.

2. These (*) people who you say make it are still primarily white & male which relates to the following ...

3. Does this analogy mean you're admitting the film industry, which is dominated by white males, prefers to do business with other white males?

[nic.h]

Originally Posted by sc111

Telephone solicitors - jeeze. You guys, at least try to form a cogent argument.

Nynex is saying in the book world there are no gatekeepers in terms of cold queries to agents.

In the film industry you must have a referral.

If the majority of the contacts in the film industry are white males who are not working with minorities, how does a minority get that referral?

Capiche?

This is completely wrong. Many high end literary agencies only accept queries by referral - including my former and current agents. So does that mean they should be sued too? I have published friends who didn't get past the query process at my own agency - it was only after I spoke to my agent herself that they got through.

Of course there's discrimination - in what world, anywhere, isn't there? I don't agree with it but there are more efficient ways of defeating it. Unfortunately you can't rely on employment law to sue a talent agency - unless you're employed by them. And you're not. Nor are you seeking to be.

Therein lies the problem.

[sc111]

Originally Posted by nic.h

. Unfortunately you can't rely on employment law to sue a talent agency - unless you're employed by them. And you're not. Nor are you seeking to be.Therein lies the problem.

True, that's why I advised the complaint should be made against production companies.

[NYNEX]

Originally Posted by nic.h

Of course there's discrimination - in what world, anywhere, isn't there? I don't agree with it but there are more efficient ways of defeating it. Unfortunately you can't rely on employment law to sue a talent agency - unless you're employed by them. And you're not. Nor are you seeking to be.

Therein lies the problem.

What are these more efficient ways of defeating discrimination? And note that I said nothing about SUING the talent agencies, I made a complaint about their practices to a relevent government agency.

The all knowning experts on here would have likely told me in my labor case I had no claim there either, but in that case, my coworkers and I got our backwages.

"
He is far less likely to have attended their ivy league schools, to have parents who are friends with their parents, to have been invited to their parties, to be a member of their college fraternity, etc. etc. Anyone with basic logic skills should see the validity of this argument."

Sc111, I did attend an Ivy League School. I do not have parents who are friends with their parents, and I didn't join one of the fraternities on campus.

In fact, the fact that I was able to attend an Ivy League School actually makes me angrier about this matter. To get into an Ivy League school, all anyone has to do is to apply, and if your grades are good enough, if you've got written good essays and have good recomendations from your teachers, ANYONE can get it.

In order to get an industry referral, you practically need to be born into certain inner circles. You need to be related to someone, or have parents who are dear friends with certain people.

Btw, JackBeNimble, Nigeria does have a film industry. They call their film industry Nollywood, just as the Indians call their film industry Bollywood. Their film industry does well, in the context of Nigeria and other African countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Nigeria