Passively Accepting the Journey? (Structure)

[TylerLeisher]

Hey guys,

My question is in regards to structure and when the hero should accept the main journey. Can my first act break be him passively agreeing to follow a group to a hide out, where he'll learn about the main story?

More Info:
So, my story in a nutshell is a high fantasy where the hero enters a new world, where he meets a small group of thieves who bring him to their hideout/base/etc, once there they convince him to help them with his special abilities to rob someone.

The main portion of the story is the hero using his special abilities to help them rob someone.

Currently my structure is something like this:

• Catalyst: Hero is invited to an event that will introduce him to the new world.
• Hero attends event, meets gang of thieves, gets invited to their hide out
• First Act Break: Hero accepts journey to follow the group to their hide out
• At their hide out, hero learns of the mission and after some self doubt he agrees to help them

Should I compress this structure more? Make the hideout agreement scene the act break and the accepting to follow them just a scene in the first act?

If this is all too confusing, let me know.

tl;dr: Can my first act break be the hero passive accepting to follow someone into the new world? Or should I make his agreement to help their mission be the act break?

[Joe Unidos]

IMHO, it's not a math problem. Write it the way you think it works best.

[Todd Karate]

I agree with Joe.

Also, watch the Hobbit movie that Rankin-Bass did. No, I'm not joking.

[FADE IN]

Originally Posted by TylerLeisher

Hey guys,

My question is in regards to structure and when the hero should accept the main journey. Can my first act break be him passively agreeing to follow a group to a hide out, where he'll learn about the main story?

More Info:
So, my story in a nutshell is a high fantasy where the hero enters a new world, where he meets a small group of thieves who bring him to their hideout/base/etc, once there they convince him to help them with his special abilities to rob someone.

The main portion of the story is the hero using his special abilities to help them rob someone.

Currently my structure is something like this:

• Catalyst: Hero is invited to an event that will introduce him to the new world.
• Hero attends event, meets gang of thieves, gets invited to their hide out
• First Act Break: Hero accepts journey to follow the group to their hide out
• At their hide out, hero learns of the mission and after some self doubt he agrees to help them

Should I compress this structure more? Make the hideout agreement scene the act break and the accepting to follow them just a scene in the first act?

If this is all too confusing, let me know.

tl;dr: Can my first act break be the hero passive accepting to follow someone into the new world? Or should I make his agreement to help their mission be the act break?

Well, Joe's right, it isn't a math problem.

However, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong about evaluating what you have in the way that you've described it. You're simply trying to locate events in conformance with the hero's journey model. Seems fair enough to me.

Your timing looks OK but of course it's going to depend on the read and the kinds of things that lead your protag to become fully motivated and eventually accept the challenge and cross the first threshold. He is initially reluctant, which is about fear ... fear of the unknown and the many possible negative outcomes that might occur. Something is needed to get him past this fear, a change in circumstances, a furher offense against the natural order of things, the encouragement of a mentor, your hero's own convictions about right and wrong vis-a-vis the stakes.

As Christopher Vogler writes "At this point in Star Wars, Luke refuses Obi Wan's call to adventure and returns to his aunt and uncles farmhouse, only to find they have been barbecued by the Emporer's stormtroopers. Suddenly, Luke is no longer reluctant and is eager to undertake the quest. The evil of the Empire has become personal to him. He is motivted."

So hopefully you have something in there that's the equivalent of this, something that impacts your protag and motivates him to proceed apace.

If you do and it reads well, then you're probably in good shape. I suspect at this juncture if you're not happy with what you have or are questioning it, this may be because whatever's supposed to motivate your protag to cross the threshold isn't sufficiently powerful to make it a strongly believeable scenario.

Classically, the hero accepts his fate and crosses the first threshold at the end of the first Act, but it won't work if he or she's not sufficiently motivated to act in this way in a believable manner.

You said, "Can my first act break be him passively agreeing to follow a group to a hide out, where he'll learn about the main story?" but acceptance probably ought not be "passive," and should, instead, involve a decisive act that springs from your protag's realization ... of now knowing what he has to do. The idea of your main story should have already been established in the catalyst (or, as some prefer, the "inciting incident"), which should probably include some treatment of the stakes. Just what is at stake here?

Your protag should be aware of what's at stake as he proceeds through his reluctance to his acceptance. It's what helps propel him past his fears, it measures how much courage he has to muster. The bigger the stakes, the more risk, the more courage he needs to act, and the more "help" he'll probably need to come up with it. The turning point should be decisive, though, as it was with Luke in Star Wars.

Realization is what's crucial in this. Your protag has to realize the implications of not acting, which should propel him to act and to do so decisively, essentially throwing caution to the wind.

So if I were in your shoes i'd be taking a close look at motivation. And if its sufficiently powerful, there's nothing wrong about ending your first Act with your protag deciding he has to act and being accepting of whatever fate may befall him, win, lose, or draw.

HTH!

[Ronaldinho]

Originally Posted by TylerLeisher

The main portion of the story is the hero using his special abilities to help them rob someone.

Currently my structure is something like this:

• Catalyst: Hero is invited to an event that will introduce him to the new world.
• Hero attends event, meets gang of thieves, gets invited to their hide out
• First Act Break: Hero accepts journey to follow the group to their hide out
• At their hide out, hero learns of the mission and after some self doubt he agrees to help them

Should I compress this structure more? Make the hideout agreement scene the act break and the accepting to follow them just a scene in the first act?

I can't tell you what's best for your story. But I can tell you how I'd approach this.

I'd start by trying to define by second act.

Eg, is the second act about pulling off the robbery, and the third act the consequences of the robbery?

Or is the second act about setting up the robbery, and the third act the robbery itself?

(BOth are common heist-film structures).

I try to define my first act in relationship to my second act. The first act ends at the moment of decision that crates the second act. My first act is suppose to contain the status quo - where are we now? - and an inciting incident which drives the character to a point of decision - the second act.

It sounds to me like your end-of-act-1 is the moment he decides to join up with them - NOT the decision to go with them to their hideout. (Unless the trip to the hideout is the second act). Could be wrong here - again, not knowing your story, it's hard to tell. But it sounds like his big decision is to say, "Yes, I want to do this job with you," rather than "Yes, I'll go listen to your job offer." Usually you want that to be your act break.

My feeling is that if he doesn't learn the main story until 10-15 pages after you act break, you're probably (usual caveats apply) starting your story too late. Take with grain of salt. YMMV.

[TwoBrad Bradley]

Since Acts are not identified in a spec screenplay it doesn't really matter.

Some readers are going to put the end of Act 1 at the point where the hero accepts the journey to follow the group to their hide out.

Other readers are going to put the end of Act 1 at the point where he agrees to help them.

There are no rules that say how long Act 1 has to be and what it MUST and MUST NOT include. Just make the story entertaining and engaging.

[Ronaldinho]

Originally Posted by TwoBrad Bradley

There are no rules that say how long Act 1 has to be and what it MUST and MUST NOT include. Just make the story entertaining and engaging.

This is true ...

... but scripts have a tendency to feel directionless when their main dramatic thrust doesn't show up until page 40 or later.

Not saying it can't be overcome. Just, rather, that it's something to look out for, that looks like it might be an issue given what he's told us about his story.

[cshel]

A few random comments, don't mind me, obviously I don't know your story, or what the hell I'm talking about, but...

OP -
If you have it where the first act break is just him going to meet with the gang, then it makes me wonder what else is happening during your entire first act. Maybe you're taking too much time to set it up and not showing where this is headed soon enough? It sounds like the first act break should naturally be his decision to join up with them. No?

In regards to TwoBrads post -
As we've learned from the pros on this site - there are no rules. But are you saying screw the three act structure? If you're an amazing, trailblazing writer - do whatever you want, and of course there are many good scripts that are exceptions to the rule. If you're not, although it's not a rule, it may be a good idea to try to have your first act break happen, loosely speaking, give or take, and depending on the total length of the script, somewhere between page 25 and 30ish. (Wow, look at all those qualifiers I used for fear of repercussions.) Or is that wrong now, too? Page 40 or more seems long to get to the first act turn, especially if the script were only 110 pages or less.

I was surprised when, on a script of mine, where the first act break happens on page 31 or 32, I actually had a couple pro readers tell me it must happen by page 30. I guess they were Blake Snyder fans.

[Jeff_Shurtleff]

I don't know guys.

I think in a spec, that's where structure is very important, or course, behind concept.

If I could sit and watch a 100 minute high concept film with people, I'm confident I could point out the inciting incident, the goal by 10, the new element by 15, plot point one around 30, plot point two around 60, climax around 90, and then the resolution.

Watch a movie and keep those numbers in mind.

It's there, right in front of you, and obvious... if you can see it.

Jeff Shurtleff

[Jeff_Shurtleff]

To add, I remember watching 50 FIRST DATES with a writer friend.

At one point I told him "See how they told you that plot point that Lucy lives the same day over and over? They hit you over the head with it and said it three times."

Jeff Shurtleff