Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

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  • Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

    This is not a big deal. But, I'm often intrigued by the English language as Vincent in Pulp Fiction was intrigued by McDonald's in Paris.

    (And so, I truly chuckled (with agreement) when I read this in a comment Craig Mazin posted during his reddit AMA: "I'm attached to three projects, and none is a comedy.")

    To the extent that "then" is used in the assortment of screenplays I've read, it seems it always appears at the start of an action sentence (or clause, or phrase). Sometimes preceded by "And"; but otherwise, "then" is right up front.

    And so...
    EXT. ALLEYWAY - NIGHT

    JACK and JILL are beating the crap out of BOB.

    Jill lands a wicked right hook to his jaw. Then
    Jack slams a crowbar to the back of Bob's
    knees.
    (Yeh, one may argue that "Then" isn't needed, as it's necessarily implied. Yet, good writers certainly use it that way.)

    Now. Based on all sorts of writing I've done in various jobs over the years (writing that is/was not screenwriting), it seems clearer to me to sometimes put "then" right before the verb. Maybe to give a stronger sense of continuation.

    But it also lets me put a more important word at the beginning of the sentence. And so, for example, tweaking the above scene -
    EXT. ALLEYWAY - NIGHT

    JACK and JILL are beating the crap out of BOB.

    Jill lands a wicked right hook to his jaw. Jack
    then
    slams a crowbar to the back of Bob's
    knees.
    Maybe lots of screenwriters do use "then" that latter way, but I've just not seen their scripts. Or I didn't notice that usage when I read them.

    I like the notion that "there are no rules". Yet, some things you just don't want to do. Such as: "ALLEYWAY - EXT. - NIGHT". And ya don't want to put page numbers centered at the bottom of the page, even though that'd still be intelligible.

    And I do get the idea that putting "then" at the start, versus embedding, seems clearer from a blocking perspective.

    So... I'm wondering, from a script reader's POV, if the "Jack then slams..." version is an awkwardly out-of-norm/rhythm kinda thing.

  • #2
    Re: using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

    Originally posted by Manchester View Post
    This is not a big deal. But, I'm often intrigued by the English language as Vincent in Pulp Fiction was intrigued by McDonald's in Paris.

    (And so, I truly chuckled (with agreement) when I read this in a comment Craig Mazin posted during his reddit AMA: "I'm attached to three projects, and none is a comedy.")

    To the extent that "then" is used in the assortment of screenplays I've read, it seems it always appears at the start of an action sentence (or clause, or phrase). Sometimes preceded by "And"; but otherwise, "then" is right up front.

    And so...
    EXT. ALLEYWAY - NIGHT

    JACK and JILL are beating the crap out of BOB.

    Jill lands a wicked right hook to his jaw. Then
    Jack slams a crowbar to the back of Bob's
    knees.
    (Yeh, one may argue that "Then" isn't needed, as it's necessarily implied. Yet, good writers certainly use it that way.)

    Now. Based on all sorts of writing I've done in various jobs over the years (writing that is/was not screenwriting), it seems clearer to me to sometimes put "then" right before the verb. Maybe to give a stronger sense of continuation.

    But it also lets me put a more important word at the beginning of the sentence. And so, for example, tweaking the above scene -
    EXT. ALLEYWAY - NIGHT

    JACK and JILL are beating the crap out of BOB.

    Jill lands a wicked right hook to his jaw. Jack
    then
    slams a crowbar to the back of Bob's
    knees.
    Maybe lots of screenwriters do use "then" that latter way, but I've just not seen their scripts. Or I didn't notice that usage when I read them.

    I like the notion that "there are no rules". Yet, some things you just don't want to do. Such as: "ALLEYWAY - EXT. - NIGHT". And ya don't want to put page numbers centered at the bottom of the page, even though that'd still be intelligible.

    And I do get the idea that putting "then" at the start, versus embedding, seems clearer from a blocking perspective.

    So... I'm wondering, from a script reader's POV, if the "Jack then slams..." version is an awkwardly out-of-norm/rhythm kinda thing.
    It's odd the sorts of grammatical rules we choose to break.

    I have no problem ending sentence with prepositions.

    I have no problem starting sentences with "and" and "but."

    On the other hand, I don't think I've ever started a sentence with "then."

    It always feels more like a sentence fragment then "sentences" that start with "and" and "but" which, in principle, are also sentence fragments.

    Although I guess it all depends on the case. Any of those words can connect what amounts to complete thoughts.

    I walked to the store and I went in through the open door.

    I walked to the store but I didn't go through the door.

    I walked to the store then I sneaked in past the security guard.

    Now take them on their own:

    And I went in through the open door.

    But I didn't go through the door.

    Then I sneaked in past the security guard.

    Again, maybe this is strictly a matter of how these things strike me, but the first two somehow seem better able to stand on their own than the last. The last, more than the other two seem as if it it's part of a sentence, not a sentence on its own.

    Jill lands a wicked right hook to Bob's jaw, then Jack slams a crowbar to the back of his knees.

    I'm not suggesting that this is any kind of rule. Just my preference.

    NMS

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    • #3
      Re: Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

      Those issues about but, and, and then are not grammatical rules. The same for ending a sentence with a preposition. That is not a grammatical rule, either. As a matter of effective writing, it is sometimes better to avoid the preposition at the end, but it is still a matter of rhetoric (i.e., style, effective use, clarity, and euphony), not grammar.

      The word then is movable. It can appear in various locations in a sentence, depending on subtle emphasis and euphony.

      "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

        The highlighted sentences beginning with conjunctions to me sound very conversational, very typical of the way people speak, when read out loud and taken in context with its preceding sentence.

        Perhaps this works equally well for a screenplay's action description, because it's conversational, and so it flows. Maybe nowhere else except in a screenplay would this be as acceptable.
        Really, it is all right to start sentences with a conjunction (and, or, but), even in very formal writing.

        The idea that this is wrong is a notion that just will not go away. I think it was promoted by English teachers back in a much older era, but it was a false "rule" even then. The basis of the rule was probably that students were bad about writing ... And then ... But then ... So finally ... and on and on. So teachers told them not to do that. And that led to a rule. But it was wrong.

        "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

          Too many thens slows down the read. But a bigger screenwriting controversy is using it at all.

          Bob gets up, straightens his suit, then leaves the room

          or just

          Bob gets up, straightens his suit, leaves the room.

          What reads better?
          I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

            I would suggest this also is dependent on context.

            For example:

            If Bob was listening to two characters conversing and was either bored, or being ignored, and say wanted to make a point about it, then:

            Bob gets up, straightens his suit, then leaves the room.

            OTOH, if say Bob was called to attend an urgent meeting, then:

            Bob get's up, straightens his suit, leaves the room.

            For me, not using 'then' makes the sentence more abrupt, dynamic, and appropriate to that particular situation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

              Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
              Too many thens slows down the read. But a bigger screenwriting controversy is using it at all.

              Bob gets up, straightens his suit, then leaves the room

              or just

              Bob gets up, straightens his suit, leaves the room.

              What reads better?
              Only because you asked ...

              It reads better with then, though I would probably have used and.

              A natural trait of narration in the English language is to use a conjunction before the final item in a series of things or actions. (The word then can function as a conjunction, though it is really an adverb.) If you want to be a minimalist and leave out then, you can do it. But that kind of writing will always strike me as "telegraphic" instead of "narrative" when I read it.

              "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

                It seems my original post lacked adequate emPHAsis on the issue I wanted to EMphaSIZE. I was trying to skip past the issue as to whether "then" should be used at all in scripts. Instead, I'm pondering...

                Assuming you're OK with this:
                Jill lands a wicked right hook to Bob's jaw. Then Jack slams a crowbar to the back of his knees.
                Are you also OK with this:
                Jill lands a wicked right hook to Bob's jaw. Jack then slams a crowbar to the back of his knees.
                To the extent that the first example is both clear and grammatically/conversationally correct, the second one is, too. But, I don't recall seeing the "Jack then" construction in a screenplay. In other sorts of writing? Yes. In screenplays? No.

                Based on the scripts I've read, "then" is used as if to say, "The next action --".

                So, while this would work: "The next action -- Jack slams a crowbar to the back of his knees." This would not work (so much): "Jack -- the next action -- slams a crowbar to the back of his knees."

                It's simply that I am a grammar geek. And, even within a given language, different contexts/media entail different grammars.
                Last edited by Manchester; 04-05-2014, 11:04 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

                  Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
                  Too many thens slows down the read. But a bigger screenwriting controversy is using it at all.

                  Bob gets up, straightens his suit, then leaves the room

                  or just

                  Bob gets up, straightens his suit, leaves the room.

                  What reads better?
                  I think Bob gets up, straightens his suit, leaves the room, reads best if "leaves the room" is expected to follow the previous two actions. But, if he does something not expected, use then to provide a pause:

                  Bob gets up, straightens his suit, then pulls down his pants and moons the group.

                  or even more unexpected and gross: Bob gets up, straightens his suit, then pulls down his pants and pisses on the conference table.
                  Last edited by jonpiper; 04-06-2014, 03:43 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

                    I love using THEN, but I try and set it apart.

                    So if I were doing it, it would be:

                    EXT. ALLEYWAY - NIGHT

                    JACK and JILL are beating the crap out of BOB.

                    Jill lands a wicked right hook to his jaw. Then:

                    Jack slams a crowbar to the back of Bob's
                    knees.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Using 'then' AFTER a sentence's subject

                      Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                      I think Bob gets up, straightens his suit, leaves the room, reads best if "leaves the room" is expected to follow the previous two actions. But, if he does something not expected, use then to provide a pause:

                      Bob gets up, straightens his suit, then pulls down his pants and moons the group.

                      or even more unexpected and gross: Bob gets up, straightens his suit, then pulls down his pants and pisses on the conference table.
                      I think you nailed it, jp, very astute. And, I would argue, a style preference that's applicable to creative and technical writing.

                      Comment

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