about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

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  • #16
    Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

    "Fubar this is the danger of giving an out of context scene."

    I have already stated like two or three times that the master is a corrupt bastard. How come you first get it the third time? Oh, yea... you are drunk.

    Again, I never asked for feedback on story plausibility or something like that so therefore there was no need to give you a lot of background information. I described a scene and asked if you thought the scene was too close to that of Gladiator. Why are you bending the purpose of this thread... ? Oh yea... you are drunk?

    In this entire thread I have not really received any opinions regarding the matter to which the thread was dedicated. How come? Is it funnier to question the plausibility of my story? :>

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    • #17
      Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

      Originally posted by fubar
      " Oh yea... you are drunk?

      :>
      Yep!
      http://wasitsomethingiwrote.blogspot.com/

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      • #18
        Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

        Sorry fubar, but I would have to agree with the above posts too. TDWoj and Brit Dave have pretty much hit the mark. Although we know little of your story, but from what you've described about the scene you intend to set up, the audience will lose empathy with your protag. I agree that if your protag was a true samurai, that he would not resort to deceit on fellow samurais with something as serious as the seppuka.

        Even though these samurais are hunting down your protag, your protag should still respect them as fellow samurais - all of who live by the same code. This master character may be the antag, but these samurais are still living by the bushido code. And your protag should recognize that.

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        • #19
          Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

          Originally posted by fubar
          I once posted some sample pages in script pages section, and it's pretty obvious from those that my story takes place in a futuristic setting. These so-called samurai are neo-samurai working for a corrupt organization, so I can pretty much define them as I want. However, even if this really did take place in medieval Japan, I don't see the implausability.

          Imagine this scenario:
          - As a samurai, you learn that your master has murdered your innocent familiy (wife and children)
          - Naturally you refuse to continue to serve this man
          - When your former master then dispatches a band of samurai to kill you, would you just let them kill you? Because that's honourable? Wouldn't it be more honourable to avenge your murdered family?

          Oh, and I have done plenty of studies on samurai culture...
          Clearly not enough, if you can just breezily throw away details that are inconvenient to your purpose.

          Oh, and "These so-called samurai are neo-samurai working for a corrupt organization, so I can pretty much define them as I want." doesn't wash with me. It's either samurai culture or it isn't. If it isn't, don't call it that because it is a reference the audience will understand and identify with on some level, and seeing something that goes against what (little) they know will be jarring and will not dispose them to be empathetic with your protagonist.

          As you've described the situation, no samurai warrior in medieval Japan would have dishonoured himself in that way - without eventually killing himself to restore his honour. As I said, no good outcome.

          Even with the futuristic setting, the scene as you've described it, there is absolutely no reason to let the situation get as far as an execution by seppuku, anyway. He can flat out refuse because it would go against his code of honour to die dishonourably (as in, unjustly) and then the big battle can break out. It is possible to win against multiple attackers if all are equally matched in skill; what gives your protagonist the edge is his belief in justice.

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          • #20
            Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

            No, no, no... stop questioning the plausibility. There is nothing implausible about it. ****, I'm getting tired of this...

            Did you read what I wrote above?

            Imagine this scenario:
            - As a samurai, you learn that your master has murdered your innocent familiy (wife and children)
            - Naturally you refuse to continue to serve this man
            - When your former master then dispatches a band of samurai to kill you, would you just let them kill you? Because that's honourable? Wouldn't it be more honourable to avenge your murdered family?

            "As you've described the situation, no samurai warrior in medieval Japan would have dishonoured himself in that way - without eventually killing himself to restore his honour. As I said, no good outcome."

            This clearly shows your ignorance. You have trouble deflecting from the romanticized picture of the samurai. There were samurai who didn't have the guts to commit seppuku when it came to it. And sure as hell there would have been samurai who, in case their master would murder their innocent familily, would seek revenge on their master instead of simply killing themselves. Samurai were humans too...
            Last edited by fubar; 09-22-2005, 02:29 PM.

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            • #21
              Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

              The problem from a dramatic point of view, is that the deception to get a weapon is door number one - the obvious and predictable choice.

              It doesn't matter if it is consistent with a feudal code or not, all that matters is that we int he audience will see it coming from a mile away and that's what makes it a bad choice.

              Instead of making your hero seem smart you end up making your bad guys seem stupid, diminishing the credibility of their threat and the drama created by their threats.

              If you want to make the hero come across as clever have him do something that is genuinely clever. Fighting swords with swords isn't that clever or exciting. Fighting swords with a chair or a rake or a belt is clever and exciting.

              Push the envelope.

              Think about the environment and what he has that can be used in unexpected and clever ways to defend himself.

              If you do that your hero will be clever without making your bad guys stupid and the fight scene will be unexpected and exciting to watch.

              Good luck!

              Fortune favors the bold - Virgil

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              • #22
                Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

                From one side I hear:
                "Your guy cannot kill x number samurai with a sword."

                Then from the other side I hear:
                "You should have your guy kill them with a belt instead"

                Then I hear from the first side:
                "You are undermining the importance of the noble samurai code!"

                Then I hear from the other side:
                "f**k the code! What matters is bla blah"

                Christ...

                "The problem from a dramatic point of view, is that the deception to get a weapon is door number one - the obvious and predictable choice."

                Yea, I'm more concerned about stuff like that. I just know that it worked in Gladiator. My question is... will it work again? And is it okay for me to create a scene that is so similar to that of Gladiator? I really would like to make it more original, but... oh well... :>

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                • #23
                  Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

                  Fubar - I don't have the same problems as everyone else.

                  I don't see why everyone is convinced your hero is so unlikable. Why would I lose empathy with the hero?

                  He has devoted his life to serving someone else. Now he has learnt that his master has murdered his innocent family.

                  Yes, he might be turning his back on his entire way of life as a samurai, but why is that so terrible? Sure, it would be terrible for HIM, but now as an ex-samurai he has chosen a new moral code. A moral code that I can understand. The agony of that decision to change his entire outlook might even make a good turning point.

                  OK - but back to the problem.

                  It might be better for him to have a friend who committed suicide honourably earlier. That way we (those of us in the audience who haven't spent 3 years learning the culture) will know what is expected, and make it more plausible that they would give him anything even vaguely weapon-like. It will also make it more understandable when he learns that his friend's death was in vain - it will give him a reason to question his beliefs.

                  If you move it slightly in the story so that the audience has an honest belief that he MIGHT commit suicide and do the 'honourable' thing, then it would add an emotional turning point to the scene rather than remind people of Gladiator. (Actually, the whole suicide thing makes me think of a scene in Flash Gordan instead.)

                  However, fighting with a weapon that he has just been given seems a bit obvious. You could change it a bit by having him try the obvious (fight with the weapon) - but fail - because the enemy were to smart for him and were expecting it.

                  Then when he pulls out his own concealed weapon, it is more of a reversal. It also makes him 'outwit' them - by asking for a weapon to suicide with, makes them believe that he has none. (OK, I'm over-thinking.)

                  As an aside, I don't understand why the hero making the hard decision to turn his back on his culture (a culture that has bizarre ideas of 'honour') would make him so unlikable.

                  There are many modern cultures with equally odd ideas of honour. If it was about a man who grew up in a violent biker gang, but betrayed his 'gang' to save a family - would that automatically make the hero so unlikeable? Even though in the 'bike gang' culture he has committed the ultimate dishonourable act?

                  (And yes, I'm simplifying the example by just referring to a 'biker gang' culture. Yes - there are thousand of biker sub-cultures - just like there would have been thousands of 'samurai' sub-cultures)

                  Mac
                  New blogposts:
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                  • #24
                    Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

                    Well you can throw a self important hissy fit or you can listen. Actually I recall reading your script pages, because I read most on here, though I rarely comment. It struck me at the time that it read like an x-box game. I had no grip on character or story. Could have been anywhere, anytime. Your obsession with style over content in this thread is indicative of the script pages. Listen more, prattle less. Once again, I bid you good day.
                    http://wasitsomethingiwrote.blogspot.com/

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                    • #25
                      Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

                      "Well you can throw a self important hissy fit or you can listen. Actually I recall reading your script pages, because I read most on here, though I rarely comment. It struck me at the time that it read like an x-box game. I had no grip on character or story. Could have been anywhere, anytime. Your obsession with style over content in this thread is indicative of the script pages. Listen more, prattle less. Once again, I bid you good day."

                      Look, you have said some pretty dumb things in this thread that absolutely made no sense. For example, your assertion that my protagonist should do the opposite of what the audience would do in the same situation is pretty stupid. This would only create a gap between my protagonist and the audience, since the audience would have a harder time relating to the protagonist and his actions. Questioning the validity of a such assertion is not "self important hissy fit", it is simple rationality...

                      And you cannot judge my story from a detached action scene. Likewise, you would be pretty stupid to judge 'The Matrix' exclusively from one of its bullet-time action scenes. You are just throwing dirt now, because I defended my views instead of listening 'blindly'...

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                      • #26
                        Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

                        Yeh okay fubar, good luck with that.
                        http://wasitsomethingiwrote.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

                          Fubar,

                          I understand your frustration. You asked one question and received answers to several others. But you're looking at it all wrong.

                          Just because our responses were off topic doesn't mean that they should not be considered. The reason that we ( I can only speak for myself) responded off topic is because some of us saw a bigger problem than the one you originally asked about.

                          In my first response I said 2 things... 1) Is it in his character to disregard the Bushido?

                          I never said it was a wrong choice, I just wanted to ask if you set it up so that the audience wouldn't look at him like a coward for choosing something that goes against conventional Samurai code.

                          My second thought was...2) Is it in his character to be able to whip so much ass on his fellow samurai? Again, I didn't say it was a wrong choice. But rather that you need to either set it up so it makes sense (example: Gladiator, the Matrix, Return of the Dragon, etc. etc.) or you need to pay it off later why he had such powers.

                          I still feel strongly that if it is never addressed than it's an unbelievable scene. For example, in Kill Bill, Uma Thurman was in an elite gang of assassins. However, she didn't just have revenge motivating her. She also was said to be the best of the best. So when I see her taking out 30 fellow assassins...I can buy it.

                          But in your scene, if one samurai is no different from any other, then how is it that he can kill them so easily?

                          Again...maybe you have this worked out in the script, so I'm not saying you did anything wrong. Just wanted to point it out so that the scene is tight for your sake.

                          And lastly, you pointed out that there are differing opinions here.
                          Yeah. So?
                          You're always gonna find that. It's a forum.
                          Pick the one you agree with.

                          Santino

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                          • #28
                            Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

                            I would appreciate if you would focus on the issues raised before addressing other parts.

                            The fact that there are opinions that differ so much from each other, just tells me that some of you are wrong. And obviously, you all think you are right :>

                            I might give you a more constructive reply later, but right now I'm not in the mood...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

                              It appears, fubar, that you have already decided what you are going to do. And seeing as how there is a consensus that your set up might not work, you refuse to listen. So why ask a question when all you're going to do is question our answers? Even if we do give you an answer that you may deem "on the topic", all you're really going to do is try to justify how your way is the right way.

                              So, to cut the thread short and end this charade, the answer you want to hear is: No fubar, it is not cliched. It's a brilliant, original, never done before idea. You have a green light from us.

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                              • #30
                                Re: about-to-be-executed-scene -- cliché?

                                Fubar on ignore. jeez. Listen buddy, here's the straight story. Your opening script pages pretty much sucked, your log line pretty much sucked, your attitude pretty much sucks. At least two out of three have to improve before you will progress. I'd go for the log line and attitude.
                                http://wasitsomethingiwrote.blogspot.com/

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