When it comes to Screenwriting, what are your weakness? Your strengths?

[Bono]

Honestly I don't know my strengths - I'm untested. But I know my weakness - trying to title my works. Going through my dropbox is a litany cringeworthy on the nose drivel

Dey hate me! - seriously!
Everybody dies (except they don't)
Not a terminator movie (just thought I'd clarify that in case Jim Cameron was in a litigious mood)
Runlikehell - NAZI
and of course everyone's favorite ... Bridge (not a or the, just bridge)

Shesh!

I love to think of titles. Bridge -- Dentist? I challenge you to rename all these right now and you'll come up with better ones.

[Southern_land]

Is it the Queens Gambit for card players?

It's about a dentist?

[sherbetbizarre]

and of course everyone's favorite ... Bridge

Is it the Queens Gambit for card players?

[Southern_land]

Honestly I don't know my strengths - I'm untested. But I know my weakness - trying to title my works. Going through my dropbox is a litany cringeworthy on the nose drivel

Dey hate me! - seriously!
Everybody dies (except they don't)
Not a terminator movie (just thought I'd clarify that in case Jim Cameron was in a litigious mood)
Runlikehell - NAZI
and of course everyone's favorite ... Bridge (not a or the, just bridge)

Shesh!

[Bono]

Yeah I try to think of it -- can I the average husband be in this situation in real life? And go from there. And in movie land that average me or you would be Steve Carrell and Tiny Fey. If you're movie needs the typical Adam Sandler role or Will Ferrell than it's more broad.

However -- my manager and me both agreed we could stay Step Brothers is a grounded idea even if the actual movie most would say is broad. But the only way to do that is to picture them as 14 year old boys and not played by the 40 year old actors, but that's how I always saw it. They were treated as teenagers and that worked for me.

[sc111]

Bono: Couples Retreat was made a couple years after my script went out. One person who used to post here and works in the industry, post production side, was convinced the core idea was lifted from mine. I did not think so.

But I hear you. And you're probably right. People I trust who read both versions, said my initial setting, an old summer camp for kids, was more believable and funnier. The manager wanted it to be more like a real military training camp. In hindsight, perhaps that worked against me. Less rooted in reality.

The script had some physical comedy but nothing that qualifies as broad comedy.

Anyway, yesterday, I started a comedy short for D-Pat's Valentine's Day contest. Conclusion: I'm very rusty in the genre. Very rusty.

[Bono]

Prezzy:

The thing is -- for me, writing professionally is writing creatively. And one flows into the other. Copywriters are assigned projects on all sorts of services and products. Markets and niche markets. I have to be a quick study on vastly different industries. They say write what you know -- and I know a lot about different things I can use in my own stories. I talk with vastly different people. You'd be surprised how many share personal stories once they get to know you that spark a kernel of an idea. And like I said in my OP, I often use these real people as inspiration for characters.

And it also applies in the reverse. I once got a referral from a client who asked me to help out his friend who owned a blacktop paving company. He needed a large presentation pocket folder he could leave behind with prospective clients and he wanted two pages (both sides making it four pages). I didn't want to turn down a referral from one of my most loyal clients. Even if it was a one and done job. It's just bad form. So I meet with the paving people and the owner gives me a bunch of sheets that will go into the pocket folder -- bullet points on the nuts and bolts of what they do.

As I drove home from the meeting I'm thinking WTF? How am I going to write this? And as I drove it hit me -- write a story about the beauty of open roads. Bikers and joggers moving down paths in the park at sunrise. Little kids in playgrounds. I searched stock photos to sell my idea to them. They loved it. And the client who gave me the referral said his friend believed he turned a number of prospects into jobs with that pocket folder. Everyone loves a story.

As for comedy -- dammit -- I thought I was over it until Bono started in. I don't know what to say. The script that got me a manager was about a couple who aggravated their divorce court judge with their bickering so he sent them to a boot camp for teaching couples teamwork. Even divorcing couples -- because they have kids and still have to co-parent as a team after they split up. Is that a grounded comedy?

The manager was rock-solid sure it would sell. My original version had it set in a backwater summer camp with an ex-Drill Sergeant running it. The manager wanted me to make it bigger -- like a real boot camp with a lot of "recruits." So I made it bigger. He was so hyped, he once called while I was grocery shopping and said, "This week you're a housewife at the grocery store (he knew I was a freelance writer), next week -- Hollywood." I'm really good at managing my expectations -- he was more bummed than I was when it got passes. When it comes to comedy, I have no idea what will sell.

See I'd say that divorce idea is a great way to think of broad vs grounded comedy. Again, I'm 100% for whatever is funny, but what tends to sell more often these days is the grounded version and yes it's weird rules.

To me grounded vs broad is all in the setup. Does the setup feel like real life. So Neighbors is more realistic in that we all can have shitty neighbors, but Happy Gilmore is broad comedy because a wanna be hockey star isn't going to become a pro golfer who beats up people in real life. However, weird things can still happen in a grounded comedy as you have comedy stars -- but as long as the setup is grounded they seem to like that better.

So to me that divorce idea is very funny -- not sure when it went out -- but if you were writing it today, I'd have the setup be more grounded than you appear to have it.

So the 80s/90s/early 2000s (broad setup) would be judge orders the couple to go to boot camp. A judge ordering our comedy hero to do stuff was a huge part of comedy when I grew up. But does that happen in real life?

So the more grounded version of that idea would be a couple on the verge of divorce signs up for some co-parenting class and it goes off the rails. Think more Couples Retreat with divorced couples vs Dodgeball type humor.

A lot of the same funny things can happen, just all depends on the setup. I say this as I think the spec I'm out now with is very broad. I'm still for writing what you want. But in general --- to get reps and buyers excited -- they are leaning more grounded in film land.

[sc111]

Prezzy: I hear you. And agree.

[Prezzy]

Yeah. That's cool how your copywriting career informs your screenwriting / novel career, which further enhances your copywriting abilities. The fact that you can leave that creative switch on at all times is what I really find impressive.

Don't get me wrong, I can write a lot of material in a short period of time, but I find I can only spend so much creative energy in a given day before the ADHD kicks in, and I start to experience diminishing returns in the material I write. Expending physical energy at my job while still being in a creative environment helps me focus when I get home. It also motivates me because if I go too long without writing, I get agitated, so I utilize my free time more efficiently for writing to ignore distractions.

I kind of struggle with the grounded vs. broad classifications myself because I don't think it's either or, but more of a spectrum. My interpretation of broad comedy is over-the-top and goofy with physical slapstick humor without fully crossing into slapstick territory while grounded comedy is something with humor that could plausibly manifest itself in reality.

Like, "Anchorman" for example is a broad comedy. But I've heard the term broad used to label something like "Neighbors", which seems much more grounded despite still having some of those broad qualities.

I would consider your divorced boot camp concept, which sounds fun, high concept, but still on the grounded side.

Yeah, that story's a bummer, but I'm sure it happens a lot. Even to more established writers at times..

I think it's almost a crapshoot as to what will sell, honestly. That's why I write a bunch of crap. So, I can shoot my crap all over Hollywood and hopefully leave a mark. If I'm lucky, one day that mark might turn into a streak of success.

[sc111]

Prezzy:

The thing is -- for me, writing professionally is writing creatively. And one flows into the other. Copywriters are assigned projects on all sorts of services and products. Markets and niche markets. I have to be a quick study on vastly different industries. They say write what you know -- and I know a lot about different things I can use in my own stories. I talk with vastly different people. You'd be surprised how many share personal stories once they get to know you that spark a kernel of an idea. And like I said in my OP, I often use these real people as inspiration for characters.

And it also applies in the reverse. I once got a referral from a client who asked me to help out his friend who owned a blacktop paving company. He needed a large presentation pocket folder he could leave behind with prospective clients and he wanted two pages (both sides making it four pages). I didn't want to turn down a referral from one of my most loyal clients. Even if it was a one and done job. It's just bad form. So I meet with the paving people and the owner gives me a bunch of sheets that will go into the pocket folder -- bullet points on the nuts and bolts of what they do.

As I drove home from the meeting I'm thinking WTF? How am I going to write this? And as I drove it hit me -- write a story about the beauty of open roads. Bikers and joggers moving down paths in the park at sunrise. Little kids in playgrounds. I searched stock photos to sell my idea to them. They loved it. And the client who gave me the referral said his friend believed he turned a number of prospects into jobs with that pocket folder. Everyone loves a story.

As for comedy -- dammit -- I thought I was over it until Bono started in. I don't know what to say. The script that got me a manager was about a couple who aggravated their divorce court judge with their bickering so he sent them to a boot camp for teaching couples teamwork. Even divorcing couples -- because they have kids and still have to co-parent as a team after they split up. Is that a grounded comedy?

The manager was rock-solid sure it would sell. My original version had it set in a backwater summer camp with an ex-Drill Sergeant running it. The manager wanted me to make it bigger -- like a real boot camp with a lot of "recruits." So I made it bigger. He was so hyped, he once called while I was grocery shopping and said, "This week you're a housewife at the grocery store (he knew I was a freelance writer), next week -- Hollywood." I'm really good at managing my expectations -- he was more bummed than I was when it got passes. When it comes to comedy, I have no idea what will sell.

[Prezzy]

Honestly, sc111, I admire your commitment to writing. I couldn't write professionally, then come home and write creatively on top of that. Too much writing. I feel like I'd burn out. That's why I went into production as a day job. Mixes things up a bit.

On the subject of comedy and marketability, I wonder if it's ingrained in comedy writers to believe that their comedic sensibilities won't sell. Bono is a broad comedy guy at heart, I've inferred that you're more the grounded type, but feel free to correct me as I would be interested in hearing about your style if you were so inclined, and I'm dark comedy, yet none of us feel like our natural inclinations towards comedy will sell.

Bono's repped, so I don't doubt his insight as to what currently sells, but I do wonder if simply writing a really funny movie with a good story and trying to be a trend setter is a viable alternative to chasing the market, which will likely change again at some point.

Then again, the last three times I bothered to submit to Austin, I got the same critique almost word for word, "I thought this script was hysterical with a fun, original story, but the humor style is dark and edgy, which might not connect with a broad audience", so maybe not.

[sc111]

Bono: I'm back on Done Deal more actively because I intend to adapt the novel for the screen so I'm intentionally writing it in a way to make that work more seamlessly. I've read that a number of novelists are moving into using screenwriting techniques: more action on the page. Less internal monologue. Fewer talking heads scenes. And like I've said above, the last four years I've been uninspired to write other than my day job writing. I'm feeling better now.

The comedies I wrote were during the time I was repped. Many moons ago. Since then I've explored other genres. Thriller. Western. Future set. Heist. But I still have those plotting issues. Then again, this conversation, has had me thinking about comedy again. I had an idea today for D-Pat's Valentine's contest that's a comedy. So, if I get it done in time, we'll see how rusty I am.

As for ad agencies -- you could still land freelance gigs if you want. The entire infrastructure of the agency world has changed since I last worked on staff (I've been freelancing a long time). These days, some shops have few to no creatives (writers, designers) on the premises. Probably more have switched now with COVID. Some only use freelancers. Others use a mix of freelancers and staffers who telecommute. Which means, other than an occasional conference call with clients, writers are often not in the room during presentations. Even back when I worked on staff, at the office, the Creative Director and the Account Exec would run the dog-and-pony-show (as they called it) for client presentations. Leaving clients with the impression every concept was the inspiration of my Creative Director.

When it comes to copywriters, there has always been a wide range of "types" with different specialties. Writers I've worked with had degrees in English Lit, fiction writing programs, journalism and many had been marketing majors with a concentration in writing copy. When I was on staff, I was given the nickname: The Queen of Long Copy. Many writers are awesome at concepts and branding, but if they need to write more than a headline and short paragraph, they get lost in the weeds. So I often got assigned long copy even on accounts that weren't mine. Still, I did win awards for magazine ad campaigns. And radio. I love radio.

When I went freelance -- and being in the Orlando market -- my experience in travel and hospitality marketing got me a lot of work. Then the 2008 "recession" hit. Hospitality clients went to hide under their desks. They were using existing consumer marketing and even running old TV spots to save on creative costs. I had to switch gears again and look for what I could get -- which turned out to be B-to-B marketing and some brave entrepreneurs launching new businesses in the middle of an economic crash.

Then there was the last and final shift to online marketing. Though Global brands still do print, it's dropped dramatically. Some small market companies don't do any print other than perhaps direct mail postcards. Some smaller local creative shops simply closed. A number of local print writers I knew weren't able to adapt to online writing and changed careers. Years ago, a lot of the telecommuting freelance jobs went overseas because English speakers in other countries who were good with first-gen SEO would lowball bids. Ridiculously low. Clients, of course, got greedy. I saw bids for print brochures and where US clients set the top rate at a flat $20. So foreign writers got the gig because they'd bid as low as $5US for the job. The result was a lot of bad content.

Because people were gaming the SEO by loading content with keywords, Google changed the algorithm (and they've continued to tweak it ever since). They actually dinged websites that continued to overuse keywords. Google wanted fresh, quality and informational content. And that started the marketing trend of attracting search engine hits with free B-to-C articles and B-to-B white papers. So my ability to write long copy served me.

Funny story: a while back I got an email from in-house marketing of Merck Pharmaceuticals. They wanted me to write a set of consumer-facing online articles on allergies. Curious, I called them back. And I asked why they contacted me when there's a slew of medical writers out there. They told me they had medical writers on staff but they all struggle writing for general-public consumers. She said she wanted me to give it a shot and she'd pay me for my time even if they couldn't use the articles. She was experimenting. I said, okay, let's do it.

Then she asks, "Do you want the input and research sent electronically? Or, I can overnight hard copies." I say "hard copy" thinking I can sit in the yard reading without wasting my own paper. She sent a box. Lab research. Medical studies. Medical papers written by doctors for doctors. The stack stood stood six inches high. I started reading through it and 20 minutes in, I call her, "I'm sorry. I can't do this. If I'm lucky, I can only comprehend every third or fourth paragraph. With some pages, only a sentence or two." She says, "Just use what you as a consumer can get from the research. If you still feel you can't do it, I'll pay you for your time." Since they were paying very well, I ran with it. I read through everything and highlighted whatever I could understand. Then I developed article/topic titles for her approval. It became a very lucrative gig. Not exciting. But the money was very good. They did offer me a staff job via telecommute but I had other clients I enjoyed working with and I couldn't dedicate a full work week to her. I did help her find a consumer writer with the ability to adapt by reviewing resumes she received and doing preliminary phone interviews. She paid me for those hours too.

I do have a point to this long story if you're still thinking about being a copywriter. I think screenwriters would do very well getting writing gigs, staff or freelance. We know how to write to a market. One of the first questions I ask is: what's the demo of your target market? Because we write dialogue, we're better able to write in a conversational tone that matches the demo no matter what the market may be. Example: if I'm writing a white paper for business people, I use a tone and terms I would use if my characters were two business people talking business. We know how to research. Which surprisingly few gig writers do. They simply use whatever input the client gives them. So essentially they're just smoothing out client-directed talking points. I go the extra mile and research surveys of my target demo to find out what's on their mind. Especially what they fear. All marketing is about surreptitiously hitting a fear button.

And with video marketing, screenwriters have a huge advantage. I got a lead on a gig writing marketing scripts listed here on Done Deal. The company was 25 miles away away from me. I never met them in person. Never spoke on the phone with them. All telecommute. Very lucrative gig -- I freelanced with them for four years until the CEO sold the company to a larger company in the midwest that just wanted to buy out their competition. It was good while it lasted though: 200-word How-To scripts targeting homeowners at $100 each and they always gave me between 20 to as many as 40 topics at a time, three to four times a year. I miss that gig.

The biggest hurdle would be if you can get into writing about boring topics. And that's a big hurdle for a lot of creative writers into any type of fiction. I turn it into a game. How fast can I do the research? How can I turn this into a story? How fast can I write the story? Because I never, ever give an hourly rate. I charge a flat rate for the project with one revision included based on client notes. And I get a kick out of when I can do a good job fast because I'm netting more money per work hour.

There is a demand for quality content at good pay rates. And, yes, there is competition. In recent years, a number of journalists have been competing for these marketing gigs (articles and white papers) and their rates are lower than mine. I've had two clients in the last five years try to bully me into dropping my rate because some recent grad, journalism major was willing to write for less. In both situations I said: Nice working with you. And both clients came back to me in short order. Because, even if you're writing a white paper providing well researched information, you are telling a story plus selling your client's product or service between the lines. Journalism folks don't know how to weave all that in. If I had to hire a writer for online marketing, I'd hire a screenwriter over a journalism major, every time.

I say -- go for it, Bono. Even if only for making walking-around money on the side. Sorry to rattle on so long.

PS: Just noticed the new DD format no longer lists writing jobs.

[Bono]

Well I'm also a member of "so close, but so far" club. I had two specs go to studios, yada yada, no sale. I did make money off a paid assignment so there's that, but I'm not in the WGA and I never sold a spec and haven't made money from my writing in like 8 years. So I FEEL YOU.

Well as a white Jewish man who loves comedy, raised in the 80s and feels anything can be funny -- anything -- I feel your pain. I am a dying breed. I figured by 2021, we'd be so progressive that shows like All In The Family and comedians like George Carlin would seem tame, but we went the wrong way in my opinion. Anyway this is all to say -- I do try to write grounded comedy ideas to sell, but sometimes I just write what makes me laugh. And sometimes that lines up to what they want. Yes TV is more open to that than features -- but to me comedy is part of my soul -- so sometimes you just got to make yourself laugh even if it will never sell. What else can you do?

Good news broad comedy is out. Grounded is in. So what kind of comedy do you write? Why do you assume it won't sell? I mean nothing sells -- so why do you think you're more out of the game than me? Maybe you just need help from other writers to nudge you in the right direction before you write the whole script?

I'm jealous as I always thought I should do advertising for a day job to actually get paid to write and be creative! I did some ad in college and I loved it. I think I would be good at it -- not that it's easy -- but I think my mind works that way. I would be very bad at working with client side and lunches. But I would enjoy trying to think of new ads for product X. To me it's perfect mix of creativity and business.

If you are still on done deal it must be for some reason. I assume it's because you still have a passion for screenwriting. But if you have a novel in you -- go for that! I started writing a novel and got 20K and then forgot to go back. I really thought I was going to finish the first draft so fast and then it just ended. I should go back even if it sucks.

[sc111]

Bono: As I said above -- close but no cigar. A lot of people make it to that point and no further. Members who are no longer here had moved even further than I, generated some heat, got meetings to introduce themselves for possible assignments in the future. Still no cigar. So they got off the train.

What I said about my concept and plot weaknesses applies to my non-comedy scripts.

My comedy sensibilities are simply no longer in style. The market's not there. For awhile, I thought I might try TV. Then there was a new show about a divorced woman that was sort of in the same general neighborhood as an idea I'd had. So I tracked it -- it was cancelled.

My ad industry experience has taught me to spot when and how consumer mindsets begin to change. I know a lot of copywriters who just couldn't adapt their skills and writing styles for internet marketing. They had to change careers.

But when it comes to something like comedy, I'm not able to change the way my mind works. For example: I couldn't write a good broad comedy if my life depended on it. I know this. I know myself.

I appreciate the pep talk, but I'm truly being radically honest with myself. This industry is brutally competitive. So many WGA writers struggling for work. I don't think it's productive for aspiring writers to underestimate what we're up against. I'm going to use the tips shared here and see if I can break out of my box. If I can't, that's it.

First, I must finish the novel then adapt for the screen. That's the plan. The last 4 years I wasn't very productive but that's changed recently. ?

[Bono]

Sc111:

How can you have specs go out to studios and think you can't come up with good ideas for screenplays? Some of us are too hard on ourselves. There is humble and there is talking yourself out of success.

There's no way you can be creative in ad land and not in screenplay land. In fact, it seems you should use that skill to think of a great film.

If I was you I'd pretend I'd have to do the ad campaign to a movie and think of a movie star or two and try to think of ideas and think What Would Peggy and Don Do For this Ad Campaign to the movie?

So use your ad skills to think of the movie poster for the script you should write = high concept idea.

Well, I don't know what you mean by too predictable -- I mean are you looking for twists and turns that no one sees coming? As a comedy writer, I look more for what's the worst thing that can happen right now to our lead and do it. I just feel some stories aren't about if you can guess what happens next, but if you enjoy the ride. Right?

But a good way to do it would be to do the exact opposite. Or just make Act 3, the end of Act 1.