Unlikable main characters

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post

    I think in this case it's all about the reader. The reader won't like this, the reader won't understand that, the reader might think that's not very nice, the reader won't connect with the heroine if she's too cocky, the reader this, the reader that. Hence what I mentioned up-thread about underestimating reader intelligence.

    YOUNG ADULT is a great reference, thank you!
    Have you contacted the publisher re changes beyond the scope of your agreement as previously discussed? I ask because it seems to me your working relationship with the editor has broken down and at this point it's not productive

    Another question: do you speak on the phone with the editor to discuss her changes?
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post

      The reason this struck me in particular is because she takes great pride in her small waist, I seem to recall it's actually the opening scene in the book / movie, but meanwhile, I'M being told that I can't have my MC say she has a small waist, because it might alienate readers who don't have a small waist. STOP the insanity!!
      There are plenty of unlikeable characters to pick from like Travis Bickle and Michael Corleone. The word "unlikeable" has been floating around more lately but it is often misused when what they really mean is "unrelatable" or simply "not compelling." Ask for clarity about the note.

      As for the waist thing, it's an important trait for Scarlett because of the period that she lives in where women were forced into highly restrictive corsets and a super tiny (super unhealthy) waist was demanded among the wealthy. Why is your character's waist size important to your story? Or is it an unnecessary unattainable ideal that may contribute to an "unrelatable" character?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by sc111 View Post

        Have you contacted the publisher re changes beyond the scope of your agreement as previously discussed? I ask because it seems to me your working relationship with the editor has broken down and at this point it's not productive

        Another question: do you speak on the phone with the editor to discuss her changes?
        I've been communicating with the Authors Guild and working on a letter for the publisher. Meanwhile, the editor reached out to me yesterday, after a lengthy silence on my part, as I knew she would. It's possible she might be feeling a little nervous, who knows. Wanted to check in. Anyway, the Guild and I both agree that I should first try to get her to come to reason, and then go to the publisher if that doesn't work. So I'm going to tell her that I will be spending the month of May revising the manuscript, making the changes I am comfortable making, and that if she has any issues with it I will go to the publisher. I will tell her that this is a far cry from what we had originally agreed to and that many of the changes she is suggesting are affecting my voice, which is just not acceptable. And no, no phone, this has all been via email. We probably will talk on the phone at some point.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post

          I've been communicating with the Authors Guild and working on a letter for the publisher. Meanwhile, the editor reached out to me yesterday, after a lengthy silence on my part, as I knew she would. It's possible she might be feeling a little nervous, who knows. Wanted to check in. Anyway, the Guild and I both agree that I should first try to get her to come to reason, and then go to the publisher if that doesn't work. So I'm going to tell her that I will be spending the month of May revising the manuscript, making the changes I am comfortable making, and that if she has any issues with it I will go to the publisher. I will tell her that this is a far cry from what we had originally agreed to and that many of the changes she is suggesting are affecting my voice, which is just not acceptable. And no, no phone, this has all been via email. We probably will talk on the phone at some point.
          Ah. No phone contact yet. That could be a factor. I've found people change their tune on some things written in emails when I speak with them on the phone.
          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post

            And no, no phone, this has all been via email. We probably will talk on the phone at some point.
            Well here's a major issue. Notes are discussed on a call even if there are notes sent via email before or after the call. The call is to discuss and clarify. That's your first step before threats of going over her head.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Northbank View Post
              Why is your character's waist size important to your story? Or is it an unnecessary unattainable ideal that may contribute to an "unrelatable" character?
              It's not that important to the story, it's important to the language in a particular scene. I have a scene where she's feeling super confident and she says a few lines that give a great visual of her as she walks, and I use things like repetition and contrast in the language to make it pop. The visual I think is pretty cool, if it was a movie it would maybe be in slow mo with a low angle shot.

              And right after she says that, she has a feeling of insecurity, so there's that emotional contrast too, which I like quite a bit.

              Also, first person POV / narrator means you have to find creative ways to describe your MC.

              Basically, she's the camera pointed at herself in this scene.

              Sort of like if Arnold used words instead of images to describe himself in COMMANDO as he gets ready to launch his one-man attack on the compound: "After riding around in a dinghy in my speedo with my bulging biceps and six pack gleaming in the sun, I leaped ashore, snapped on my assault gear and strode over to the compound with an M16 in one hand, a grenade ready to go, a fire launcher strapped to my back and my 15-inch Bowie at the ready."

              It's fun with words and visuals and it just seems ridiculous to make such a big deal over it (especially after having the manuscript for over a year).





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              • #22
                Originally posted by sc111 View Post

                Ah. No phone contact yet. That could be a factor. I've found people change their tune on some things written in emails when I speak with them on the phone.
                Yes to both you and SC. We need to do that. I'm someone who likes to have everything in writing and I am more articulate when I have time to really think about what I want to say, so I'm probably less phone oriented than most.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post

                  Yes to both you and SC. We need to do that. I'm someone who likes to have everything in writing and I am more articulate when I have time to really think about what I want to say, so I'm probably less phone oriented than most.
                  I'm the same as you, but I've found with notes that there are these people that like to talk rather than email back and forth. You might be able to solve all of the issues with a long phone call. You can also better gauge if she's giving notes to give notes, or if she's really upset about some things in your book, and start digging for the root causes. Hard to read tone in email.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lostfootage View Post

                    I'm the same as you, but I've found with notes that there are these people that like to talk rather than email back and forth. You might be able to solve all of the issues with a long phone call. You can also better gauge if she's giving notes to give notes, or if she's really upset about some things in your book, and start digging for the root causes. Hard to read tone in email.
                    I'm going to suggest a phone call after I've spent a couple of weeks looking over her notes and thinking about what changes I want to make to the manuscript. Every time I look at them I find something else to get upset about (like a vicious drug dealer can't have "shifty eyes"), so it's been taking me a long time + I've been swamped with translation work.

                    But yes, a phone call will definitely be in order.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post

                      It's not that important to the story, it's important to the language in a particular scene. I have a scene where she's feeling super confident and she says a few lines that give a great visual of her as she walks, and I use things like repetition and contrast in the language to make it pop. The visual I think is pretty cool, if it was a movie it would maybe be in slow mo with a low angle shot.

                      And right after she says that, she has a feeling of insecurity, so there's that emotional contrast too, which I like quite a bit.

                      Also, first person POV / narrator means you have to find creative ways to describe your MC.

                      Basically, she's the camera pointed at herself in this scene.

                      Sort of like if Arnold used words instead of images to describe himself in COMMANDO as he gets ready to launch his one-man attack on the compound: "After riding around in a dinghy in my speedo with my bulging biceps and six pack gleaming in the sun, I leaped ashore, snapped on my assault gear and strode over to the compound with an M16 in one hand, a grenade ready to go, a fire launcher strapped to my back and my 15-inch Bowie at the ready."

                      It's fun with words and visuals and it just seems ridiculous to make such a big deal over it (especially after having the manuscript for over a year).


                      Just a suggestion -- could you change it to the MC bragging about "my hot butt" instead of "small waist"?

                      "Small" gives the editor her opening to worry about size-ism.

                      "Hot" is in the eyes of the beholder. What's the editor going say? Readers who don't have a hot butt will be offended? There's no standard establishing hot butts written in stone, anywhere. This is the kind of comeback that works better in a phone discussion, IMO.

                      And when the MC has her moment of insecurity after, it may work even better. And you can use that insecurity moment to justify it -- because insecurity makes the MC relatable.
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mark Somers View Post
                        Rorschach in "Watchmen".


                        I don't think Rorschach is unlikable, but a mixed bag. You feel sorry for him because of his childhood, but you fear him as an adult.
                        "A screenwriter is much like being a fire hydrant with a bunch of dogs lined up around it.- -Frank Miller

                        "A real writer doesn't just want to write; a real writer has to write." -Alan Moore

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by sc111 View Post


                          Just a suggestion -- could you change it to the MC bragging about "my hot butt" instead of "small waist"?

                          "Small" gives the editor her opening to worry about size-ism.

                          "Hot" is in the eyes of the beholder. What's the editor going say? Readers who don't have a hot butt will be offended? There's no standard establishing hot butts written in stone, anywhere. This is the kind of comeback that works better in a phone discussion, IMO.

                          And when the MC has her moment of insecurity after, it may work even better. And you can use that insecurity moment to justify it -- because insecurity makes the MC relatable.
                          The small waist contrasts with the big gun. It's about words, but like I said it's also a strong visual.

                          The point is that I shouldn't have to be arguing about something this trivial and wondering what reader somewhere might be offended that a character has the audacity to state that she's feeling hot and looking hot. Total bulls!t and I'm not changing it.

                          Speaking of relatable, scene from NOTTING HILL where Hugh Grant gets trapped interviewing actors from a sci-fi movie.

                          -And did you identify with your character?
                          -No.
                          -Why not?
                          -Because my character is a psychopathic flesh-eating robot.

                          At least my MC isn't flesh-eating (I'm saving that for the next book).

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post

                            The small waist contrasts with the big gun. It's about words, but like I said it's also a strong visual.

                            The point is that I shouldn't have to be arguing about something this trivial and wondering what reader somewhere might be offended that a character has the audacity to state that she's feeling hot and looking hot. Total bulls!t and I'm not changing it.

                            Speaking of relatable, scene from NOTTING HILL where Hugh Grant gets trapped interviewing actors from a sci-fi movie.

                            -And did you identify with your character?
                            -No.
                            -Why not?
                            -Because my character is a psychopathic flesh-eating robot.

                            At least my MC isn't flesh-eating (I'm saving that for the next book).
                            OK. Got it.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
                              For those who followed the thread in which I was having problems with my publisher, who's trying to change too much about my book, well one of those issues was the likability of the MC (who is a woman, incidentally, hence more pressure IMO).

                              And so that got me thinking, especially after watching a great podcast with two female authors discussing the importance of NOT having your MC always be likable: what are some of film and literature's favorite unlikable main characters?

                              Just as I was having those thoughts the other day, I happened to see a reference to GONE WITH THE WIND somewhere, and there it was: Scarlett freaking O'Hara.

                              The MC of one of the biggest literary and cinematic hits of all time. She's full of herself, she's vain, she's selfish, she can be cruel, and she covets what she cannot have. But: she's fierce, she's a survivor, these unattractive qualities also make her more human, and she matures emotionally over the course of the story. She's fully fleshed out and readers respond to that.

                              The reason this struck me in particular is because she takes great pride in her small waist, I seem to recall it's actually the opening scene in the book / movie, but meanwhile, I'M being told that I can't have my MC say she has a small waist, because it might alienate readers who don't have a small waist. STOP the insanity!!

                              Anyway, have at it: unlikable characters we love. Serial killers, drug dealers, narcissists, Humbert Humbert... Bonus points if they are women, so I can use that as ammo in the defense case I'm mounting
                              I couldn't come up what I could call an unlikable woman MC. Lorraine Broughton in "Atomic Blonde" maybe, if she was out to revenge the death of her lover. But the story keeps her going in the direction of a regular MI6 operative. Richard Chance in "To Live and Die in LA" went off the rails to get the bad guy who killed his partner.

                              Rorschach, not at all a nice person died for his principles. Chance died because he took his revenge too far.

                              Aileen in "Monster"?

                              Scarlett O'Hara is really hard to out do.





                              TRIAL FORUMS


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Madbandit View Post

                                I don't think Rorschach is unlikable, but a mixed bag. You feel sorry for him because of his childhood, but you fear him as an adult.
                                I just saw this... Yea he dies for his principles. Not exactly Dirty Harry. He did arc in the story though from imprisoning criminals to outright murdering them.
                                TRIAL FORUMS


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