Finding a solution.

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  • Finding a solution.

    Does a character following another one easy to write? I have this character sitting in his car while its raining - he watches the others come out of an establishment and then follows them. Is there an easy scene somewhere that describes it best? Or should I post what I have to see if it works?

    And also, I want to know if this line of dialgoue sounds like subtext? Character one saids:

    You know John, I’m so happy you’re beginning to remember your parents--
    {The answer from John/Jarvis}

    "Well being around you does help, it’s like getting to know them for the first time."

    The reason I asked is because the first character is a female - who so happens to be his real mother - but she doesn't know that he's her son. So, does this fall in the line of SUB-TEXT? Just curisous?
    D. Alin
    http://alinproduction.blogspot.com Sci-Fi/Fantasy (Basically) [Skype me at "Buyitpc" - I will surely love to talk!]

  • #2
    Re: Finding a solution.

    As soon as I read John/Jarvis's (???) respond I knew they were related...is that your intention. I think this might fall into the rare "on the nose subtext" box...

    In regards to your first question...just write it...even if it is crap just write it. There's plenty of time for re-writes
    One meets his destiny often in the road he takes to avoid it. - French Proverb

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Finding a solution.

      Whether it is subtext or not depends on who knows what. As a writer, it's your job to control the flow of information. Does one character know something another character doesn't know? Does the audience know something a character doesn't know? By controlling who knows what when, you are able to make your script more interesting,


      If the audience knows she's his mother, and if the son knows but the mother doesn't, there's some subtext in his answer. His answer is a bit coded. The audience would know exactly what he means by that, and they would know the mother doesn't know. If the script is working, the audience will be curious about when she will find out that she is his mother.

      If he doesn't know she's his mother, then I'd say it's On the Nose dialog. They both say exactly what they mean instead of talking in code, or talking about something else so you'd have to read between the lines to know what's really in their hearts. When you have to read between the lines, that's subtext.

      If the audience knows she's his mother but the characters don't know it themselves, you have a situation in play. The audience knows something that adds a level of interest to what they are hearing in that on the nose dialog. They understand the truth in what he is saying, knowing that the characters don't know it themselves. That should make them want to know when the characters will learn the truth.

      If the audience doesn't know she's his mother -- if no one knows it -- then it is just garden variety on the nose dialog. Everybody says what they thinks, and no one is reading anything extra into it. There is no added interest for anyone.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Finding a solution.

        Originally posted by Joaneasley
        Whether it is subtext or not depends on who knows what. As a writer, it's your job to control the flow of information. Does one character know something another character doesn't know? Does the audience know something a character doesn't know? By controlling who knows what when, you are able to make your script more interesting,


        If the audience knows she's his mother, and if the son knows but the mother doesn't, there's some subtext in his answer. His answer is a bit coded. The audience would know exactly what he means by that, and they would know the mother doesn't know. If the script is working, the audience will be curious about when she will find out that she is his mother.
        That's exactly right, he and we as the audience knows, but she doesn't... so I suppose it does present a clue of things. Thank you.
        Originally posted by Joaneasley

        If he doesn't know she's his mother, then I'd say it's On the Nose dialog. They both say exactly what they mean instead of talking in code, or talking about something else so you'd have to read between the lines to know what's really in their hearts. When you have to read between the lines, that's subtext.

        If the audience knows she's his mother but the characters don't know it themselves, you have a situation in play. The audience knows something that adds a level of interest to what they are hearing in that on the nose dialog. They understand the truth in what he is saying, knowing that the characters don't know it themselves. That should make them want to know when the characters will learn the truth.

        If the audience doesn't know she's his mother -- if no one knows it -- then it is just garden variety on the nose dialog. Everybody says what they thinks, and no one is reading anything extra into it. There is no added interest for anyone.
        I will certainly keep this in mind with all the issues of sub-text. I'd never figured to create it much, but it does make things easier knowing I can focus on the re-write. Which this is. Hopefully, the second draft will reveal things better. Again, thanks!
        D. Alin
        http://alinproduction.blogspot.com Sci-Fi/Fantasy (Basically) [Skype me at "Buyitpc" - I will surely love to talk!]

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Finding a solution.

          Originally posted by OzFade
          As soon as I read John/Jarvis's (???) respond I knew they were related...is that your intention. I think this might fall into the rare "on the nose subtext" box...

          In regards to your first question...just write it...even if it is crap just write it. There's plenty of time for re-writes
          I am doing the rewrite here Oz, and sometimes I run into some problems because I have never written anything like this before... that's why I'm asking. But thanks!
          D. Alin
          http://alinproduction.blogspot.com Sci-Fi/Fantasy (Basically) [Skype me at "Buyitpc" - I will surely love to talk!]

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Finding a solution.

            Subtext=the meaning beneath the surface.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Finding a solution.

              Originally posted by Gauchita
              Subtext=the meaning beneath the surface.
              You bet ya. And for your kind words... let me know if you like to have $50.00!?
              D. Alin
              http://alinproduction.blogspot.com Sci-Fi/Fantasy (Basically) [Skype me at "Buyitpc" - I will surely love to talk!]

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Finding a solution.

                I don't know how to respond to that.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Finding a solution.

                  Originally posted by Gauchita
                  I don't know how to respond to that.
                  That's alright, you earn your $50.00 for telling me about sub-text... it's a sub-text itself. Unless you like to really make $50.00 I can tell you how for doing it. Real money too. But, the decision is yours alone.

                  I'm not trying to say it meanful. I apologize if it came out that way. But, it's just a sub-text way of saying that is what I am asking about for the issue of the post. But, either way... if you like to really get a real $50.00 in like three minutes you will! And it's FREE! Either way, you let me know.

                  Thanks, again. Cheers.
                  D. Alin
                  http://alinproduction.blogspot.com Sci-Fi/Fantasy (Basically) [Skype me at "Buyitpc" - I will surely love to talk!]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Finding a solution.

                    Gauchita, is your PM box full?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Finding a solution.

                      Originally posted by David Alin
                      I'm not trying to say it meanful. I apologize if it came out that way. But, it's just a sub-text way of saying that is what I am asking about for the issue of the post.
                      That's not subtext. That's just unclear and illogical.

                      The point of subtext in drama isn't to encode secret messages or inside jokes that no one understands. (I do like to incorporate lots of little puns in my dialogue - but from an audience POV these would be nearly invisible.)

                      It's to add another dimension to your dialogue. To incorporate nonverbal elements of communication - how the person feels, what they're really thinking about, whether they're trying to be upbeat or disdainful or silly.

                      As with verbal communication, your job as a writer is to convey this message effectively.

                      If the subtext cannot be understood then it just becomes ciphertext.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Finding a solution.

                        Originally posted by bcressey
                        That's not subtext. That's just unclear and illogical.

                        The point of subtext in drama isn't to encode secret messages or inside jokes that no one understands. (I do like to incorporate lots of little puns in my dialogue - but from an audience POV these would be nearly invisible.)

                        It's to add another dimension to your dialogue. To incorporate nonverbal elements of communication - how the person feels, what they're really thinking about, whether they're trying to be upbeat or disdainful or silly.

                        As with verbal communication, your job as a writer is to convey this message effectively.

                        If the subtext cannot be understood then it just becomes ciphertext.
                        Wow! I got the impression that sub-text actively enages the reader?
                        I heard that sub-text (plenty of them) are to change the subject, evade, contrast the dialogue, double its meaning, difficulty revealing emotions, imply instead of conclude, emitional tasks, metaphoric or symbolic, physicalize the emotion, answer a question with a question, the list goes on and on.
                        I was just wondering if what I wrote could simply be sub-text? Being that it implies or perhaps evade an engagement conversation about the character's secret. Not telling her that he's her son. And that if she did... it would cause a serious paradox with the time continuum.
                        D. Alin
                        http://alinproduction.blogspot.com Sci-Fi/Fantasy (Basically) [Skype me at "Buyitpc" - I will surely love to talk!]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Finding a solution.

                          Originally posted by Biohazard
                          Gauchita, is your PM box full?

                          Disabled. I enabled and sent you a message.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Finding a solution.

                            An example of what I consider subtext from the page I'm supposed to be rewriting now.

                            Basic setup: It's 1895. Cordelia (a reporter) is watching a lumberjack destroy a food cart on the street. A nearby policeman doesn't bother trying to stop the crime.

                            Code:
                                            CORDELIA
                                    Unless I miss my mark, there 
                                    seems to be a rather extreme 
                                    act of vandalism in progress.
                             
                            The policeman ignores her and resumes reading his newspaper.
                             
                                            CORDELIA (CONT'D)
                                    There's a great article about 
                                    petunias on page six.
                            Cordelia's first line of dialogue:

                            1) establishes her as at least somewhat civic-minded (setup for a damaging article she writes later)

                            2) suggests her relatively powerless status in society as a whole (she appeals to an indifferent authority figure instead of taking matters into her own hands.)

                            3) conveys a sense of detachment from the events, appropriate to a reporter

                            4) offers a hook for her sense of humor; she intends the "unless I miss my mark" as an ironic observation

                            5) provides a dollop of (invisible) dramatic irony, in that Cordelia figuratively "missing the mark" is pivotal to the story's events.

                            6) contains one of my little puns (word choice of vandalism, oblique historical reference to certain literary inspirations for the antagonist that ordered the destruction of the food cart).

                            Note that only 3 and 4 really depend on the words she uses. 1 and 2 are accomplished by having her speak in the first place. 5 and 6 are guideposts rooted in my sense of the story.


                            Cordelia's second line of dialogue:

                            1) Implies that she wrote the article in question.

                            2) Further establishes her sense of humor/tone - the remark is intended as ironic and self-deprecating.

                            3) Foreshadows her external goal - she wants to be an undercover reporter and write front page articles instead.

                            4) Sets up her internal goal - petunias serve as a recurring symbol of unity with the protagonist.

                            1, 2, and 3 should be easily absorbed by the audience. The 4th is not particularly important from a dramatic POV - the audience won't need to be clubbed over the head with the "romantic" subplot - but it does provide me with a sort of structural shorthand to tie plot threads together.


                            When I outline scenes, I tend brainstorm and write the subtext first and then build the dialogue from that. Subtext really goes to the heart of who your characters are and how they feel about one another, which is crucial to hitting the proper beats of conflict in a scene.

                            When I find that my dialogue sucks, usually it's because the words I ended up choosing do a lousy job of conveying the appropriate subtext.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Finding a solution.

                              Originally posted by David Alin
                              I was just wondering if what I wrote could simply be sub-text?
                              To answer your question more directly (I rewrote your dialogue slightly to emphasize certain points).

                              Code:
                                              MOTHER
                                      I'm so happy you're beginning to 
                                      remember your mother.
                               
                                              JARVIS
                                      I feel like I'm getting to know her
                                      for the first time.
                              You say that Jarvis is doing the following:

                              - avoiding a conversation about his family
                              - not telling her he's her son
                              - avoiding a paradox in the space-time continuum

                              Well. He's not really avoiding the subject - he responds to the question with a playful remark that the audience gets as a joke and his mom interprets as agreement. So you have a bit of subtextual humor.

                              He is avoiding the revelation that he's her son, so you also have the subtext of deception/misdirection.

                              Maybe he's avoiding a paradox in the space-time continuum, but I'd hesitate to call that subtext.

                              Imagine subtext as a really big wryly.

                              Code:
                                                      JARVIS
                                              (teasing his mom a bit)
                                      I feel like I'm getting to know her
                                      for the first time.
                              Code:
                                                      JARVIS
                                              (letting her believe 
                                              that he's not her son)
                                      I feel like I'm getting to know her
                                      for the first time.
                              Code:
                                                      JARVIS
                                              (preventing the catastophic
                                              ripple in the space-time
                                              continuum that he fears)
                                      I feel like I'm getting to know her
                                      for the first time.
                              Do you see how the third example is different from the first two? If he's really so preoccupied with paradoxes etc then those probably aren't the words he would say - because he comes very close to telling her outright (which is why the line works).

                              The "MOTHER" dialogue is a good example of a line with no apparent subtext.

                              Code:
                                                      MOTHER
                                              (happy Jarvis remembers
                                              his parents now)         
                                      I'm so happy you're beginning to 
                                      remember your mother.
                              Basically the subtext is saying exactly what her dialogue says already.

                              Imagine subtext as a really big wryly that is always longer than and different from the actual dialogue. Now write it without using the wryly.

                              (Not because wrylies are "bad". Because if you can convey the subtext without them, they are superfluous.)

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