Antagonists...

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  • Antagonists...

    I'm piecing together a drama... the problem i'm having is that there is no clear cut antagonist or antagonistic force. i.e. a knife wielding maniac looking to kill the protag.

    I'm asking DD'ers their opinon of some recent movies, such as Garden State, The Best Man etc. Who or what are the antagonist in those films?

    Usually in 'coming of age' films, am i right to assume the antagonist is usually the inner conflict of the protagonist?

  • #2
    Re: Antagonists...

    I can't speak to GARDEN STATE, but the usual antagonist in coming-of-age is NOT the protag's inner turmoil. You've got to externalize the antagonist -- the internal conflict mirrors, contradicts and eventually allows the protag to overcome the external conflict -- but without a strong, external antagonist, the protagonist has nothing to push against ... it's just a navel-gazing memoir.

    Look at classic coming-of-age movies ... OLD YELLER, STAND BY ME, DUDDY KRAVITZ, THE LAST PICTURE SHOW, DINER, BREAKING AWAY, OCTOBER SKY, MY LIFE AS A DOG, GHOST WORLD ... the antagonists are often parents or older family (usually the father), or the town (rigid institutions that smother creativity or expression), or "the other" that antagonizes the youth until he or she figures out how to embrace it. Something stands in the way. Inner conflict plays out on that stage.

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    • #3
      Re: Antagonists...

      Originally posted by mad_r0 View Post
      I'm asking DD'ers their opinon of some recent movies, such as Garden State, The Best Man etc. Who or what are the antagonist in those films?
      Garden State's progtag was Large's father who kept drugging him and making him feel guilty for his mom's unhappiness. That was what Large had to overcome: That his mom not being happy was HER problem (and his dad's) and it wasn't his problem to solve.

      It wasn't until he was old enough to realize that it wasn't his fault his mother was so unhappy and he had a right to be who he wanted to be. This is the whole point of him stopping taking his meds at the end and him being scared to death what it means/meant because it is the fear of the unknown that is before him because now he CAN be the person he wants to be, but doesn't know how, ironically.

      Say what you want about Garden State, good or bad, but the arc is one of the most realistic ones I've ever seen, IMO because it isn't one that is typical and just screams "I'm the arc that the protag needs to overcome" because it is very subtle. I wonder if he (Zach Braff) or a friend went through this kind of thing in real life because I guarantee it is one that just can't be "faked", IMO.
      Positive outcomes. Only.

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      • #4
        Re: Antagonists...

        The interesting thing about GS is that while Large's father could be considered the antagonistic force, it was simply the personification of the real antagonist, and that was Large's passivity. He had accepted and allowed himself to become numb and accept things rather than direct his own destiny. So there really was no clear cut "bad guy", as evidenced by how little we actually saw dear ol dad. Therefore he really didn't present the constant oppositional force Large had to overcome. He merely *represented* it.

        GS wasn't a coming of age movie so much as a coming alive movie. We see Large step out of a lifelong fog and embrace life in a very real tangible way by embracing free spirit Sam.

        Going back to the idea that the protag can his or her own antag, you really have to find a cinematic way to show that to your audience.

        Zach did this beautifully.
        "So I guess big parts of our youth are supposed to suck. Otherwise we'd get too attached and wake up one day trapped on a hamster wheel that used to look like a merri-go-round." - Hal Sparks

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        • #5
          Re: Antagonists...

          Sorry Geeves, I disagree. I'm with Pull Bacjk on this.

          In Garden State, Large's passivity was his fatal flaw which inhibited his ability to deal with his antagonist: his father.

          Once the protag deals with his/her fatal flaw he/she can triumph over the antagonist.
          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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          • #6
            Re: Antagonists...

            You? Disagree with me? Nah, couldn't happen.

            What I got out of GS was the whole man vs. himself thing. Sure, the dad had plenty to do with shaping Large's passive character, but it was that character itself he had to overcome.

            Large's turning point was when he was telling his friends about the accident with his mother. It was his moment of truth.

            Which is why the story didn't end when he told his dad how he felt, but when he finally took his life into his hands and went back to Sam.

            That last scene on the airplane showed us exactly how much Large had "arc'd", because it was in direct contrast to the guy who got on the plane to come home for his mother's funeral. That arc came from the conflict, and the conflict did not come from his rarely seen father.

            It came from Large himself.
            "So I guess big parts of our youth are supposed to suck. Otherwise we'd get too attached and wake up one day trapped on a hamster wheel that used to look like a merri-go-round." - Hal Sparks

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            • #7
              Re: Antagonists...

              I tend to think of the antagonist in the coming of age stories as the representative of society making what the child character feels to be unreasonable demands.

              It's how they come to terms with those demands, not necessarily defeat the representative, that makes the story.

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              • #8
                Re: Antagonists...

                This is good food for thought. Any more opinions?

                Pull back, thanks for the list. Gonna hit up blockbuster now.

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                • #9
                  Re: Antagonists...

                  Say Anything fits that bill too.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Antagonists...

                    Originally posted by whistlelock View Post
                    Say Anything fits that bill too.
                    How could I leave that off the short list -- great movie. Another similar one about that same time was THE SURE THING.

                    And Cameron Crowe's others in a series on his own coming of age -- ALMOST FAMOUS. Although it's a good question whether FAMOUS is really coming-of-age story or episodic behind-the-scenes peek. Either way, it's still worth watching if you're writing about adolescence. FAST TIMES AT RIDGEMONT HIGH for another take.

                    Whistle's right about "society's demands" being the real antagonist in coming-of-age stories (see REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE), but it can manifest different ways -- usually with the father or other parent-figure as proxy for society and the grown-up world, or an "other" (girls and their mysteries in DINER) that vexes our protagonist until he can overcome his fatal flaw and reconcile with the way life is going to be. (Also check out Barry Levinson's LIBERTY HEIGHTS for a different take, within a family instead of a group of friends, with visits to the same diner a few years earlier.)

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                    • #11
                      Re: Antagonists...

                      Speaking of Cameron Crowe what about Elizabethtown? What was it that Orlando Bloom had to overcome?

                      His sense of failure?

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                      • #12
                        Re: Antagonists...

                        His sense of the film's failure.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Antagonists...

                          Being trapped in an over-plotted mess. Kinda like STRANGER THAN FICTION but without the laughs.

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                          • #14
                            Antagonists coming of age...

                            You might also take a look at TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD - a book you probably had to read in school and a movie you may hve been required to see. Maybe you haven't seen it since then...

                            The story is a classic coming of age story, and has two plot threads that are connected by theme and intersect again and again. Though tomboy Scout is the narrator, it's really her brother Jem's story - and he gets all the close ups. He's a 12 or 13 year old boy - and the story is about the events that turn him from boy to man.

                            The "B story" is about Scout and Jem and the kid next door (forget his name) goofing off over summer vacation. Doesn't sound like much, but there's an antagonist - Boo Radley. Boo is a maniac who lives in the creepy old house down the street, and he once stabbed his father for no reason. He's a monster. They locked up Boo in the basement of the courthouse - because he's a monster - but eventually they let him go back home.

                            Because Boo is a mostly unseen monster, the story creates two tangible "surrogates" for Boo. One is the creepy old house itself - much of the summer is spent with the kids daring each other to touch the front door of the Radley house. It's kind of like poking a sleeping lion with a stick - the monster could wake up and eat you. Again and again they dare each other - until Jem works up the nerve to crawl under the fence and look through the window. This is a big suspense scene - because you just know Boo with come out of the shadows and grab him... and Boo's shadow *does* creep up on him! It's like the shark fin in JAWS... you see Boo's shadow, you know you're in big trouble!

                            The other surrogate for Boo is his father - who is very protective of Boo and actually fires his shotgun at Jem in one scene. That's real danger - and an altercation that is tangible, not internal.

                            The "A story" - which also kicks in in the first 15 minutes or so - is Jem & Scout's lawyer dad, Atticus, being assigned the job of defending Robinson, a Black man accused of raping a young woman. In this story, the antagonist is Bob Ewell, the girl's drunk, violent, bigoted father. He's a great antagonist - and he seems to pop up evey ten minutes drunk and violent and threatening Atticus (or the kids) because he's "siding with that n*gg*r". Ewell is a real monster. This story is Atticus defending Robinson against the charges of rape - both in court and out. Ewell puts together a lynch mob at one point and Atticus (and the kids!) must keep the *armed* mob from snatching Robinson from the jail and hanging him. Ewell pops up at Robinson's wife's house and threatens Atticus and the kids there, too. Ewell threatens then in the courthouse - and even figures out how to make threats on the witness stand. Though there are great courtroom scenes in this film, Ewell *physically* threatens Atticus and the kids again and again outside the courtroom - where *most* of the story takes place.

                            Robinson is innocent. Ewell knows this. Atticus ends up not just defending a man, but defending the idea that a Black man can be innocent and a white man can be guilty - the basic prejudice of the town.

                            So we have *two* antagonists... and the two story threads are connected by theme: there's a great scene where Atticus tells Scout that you can't judge anyone until you've seen his POV and walked in his shoes. Robinson is being judged by the color of his skin, and Boo Radley by his creepy reputation. Scout - but mostly Jem - learns that you can't judge people from the outside. There's a swell scene where Jem *insists* on coming with Atticus to do the right thing (which leads to a confrontation with Ewell). Jem steps up and becomes a man in this film - and learns some hard lessons that change him forever.

                            I think one of the things you need to look at: is your story *big enough* for the screen? TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD may seem like a small story - but it's about larger events... and there's even a maniac with a knife!

                            - Bill

                            PS: Boo Radley (and his father and creepy house) are ways to show Jem's *internal* conflict - his own struggle with prejudice. Jem starts out thinking Boo is a monster because he is different, then slowly grows to realize that Boo might not be a monster after all. Boo is an *externalization* of Jem's emotional conflict, so that we can *see* his character arc through series of encounters with Boo (and house and Boo's father).
                            Last edited by wcmartell; 02-19-2007, 03:51 PM.
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