Twists that were never set-up

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  • #31
    Re: Twists that were never set-up

    Originally posted by Maclean View Post
    "Matchstick Men" is a movie that didn't give any hints, and although it made sense in the end and I liked the movie, I felt a bit cheated.

    I remember watching the DVD and Ridley Scott saying how they shot an alternate version that gave hints to the twist (i.e. played fair) but they decided to remove them in the final cut because it was too obvious and audiences were correctly guessing the twist ahead of time.
    That movie's twist was obvious from just the commercials. I watched the whole movie wondering how someone could possibly not realize what the twist was going to be.

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    • #32
      Re: Twists that were never set-up

      I didn't see Matchstick Men, but I got the vibe from the trailer that:

      Maybe Spoiler

      ...his newfound daughter would end up scamming him. Probably in cahoots with the psychiatrist.
      "Forget it, Jake. It's Hollywood."

      My YouTube channel.

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      • #33
        Re: Twists that were never set-up

        The 'con gets conned' twist is nothing new. You expect it in those type of stories -- and that's exactly why "Matchstick Men" was a weak twist. It's the ONLY twist that could have come from that story. It was a cheat for that reason. "The Sixth Sense" was similar, in that the twist in that film was the only twist that could come from that story -- but it was set-up with skill and craft.

        Unlike MM, which was too easy. The twist wasn't polished into the whole story, it was just lumped on at the end. I feel "Matchstick Men" is a movie that was too good for it's twist, and thus the twist cheapened the final product. The movie was going in a more interesting direction before it happened.
        Last edited by Maclean; 02-20-2007, 08:02 PM.

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        • #34
          Re: Twists that were never set-up

          That was it, huh? Did they even play around with the suspicion that she might be an undercover cop setting him up for the burn?
          "Forget it, Jake. It's Hollywood."

          My YouTube channel.

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          • #35
            Re: Twists that were never set-up

            Nope. Check it out, though. Still thought it was an enjoyable film.

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            • #36
              Re: Twists that were never set-up

              Does Runaway Jury count? It was set up but the twist wasn't that effective. Yet, it didn't affect the quality of the plot. Still a good film.

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              • #37
                Re: Twists that were never set-up

                Just want to ask but, what would be the difference between a reversal and a twist? Sounds to me, a reversal doesn't need to be set-up in order to work because that's what defines it, it's a sudden reversal of expectations.

                A twist, on the other hand, needs to be setup so it doesn't feel cheap.

                Or is a twist that was never set-up merely a failed reversal? Or is a reversal simply another name for a twist? Anyone?

                I was never good with terminology...

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                • #38
                  Re: Twists that were never set-up

                  A reversal is a play against expectations -- the reverse of what an audience is expecting will happen in any given scene. It's good writing. A twist is usually broader, having more implication on the story as a WHOLE, thus effecting EVERY scene. My 2 cents, anyway. Could be totally off.

                  I have a seperate question, though. I was surprised to find that the big twist in The Crying Game comes not at the end, but about halfway through (in the script on pg. 58). Other big twists usually come more towards the end, ala Sixth Sense or even The Number 23. Usually the last 10 pages.

                  My question is, is one more effective than the other? Does it make a difference -- assuming either place you put it your story still makes sense -- where the twist is placed?

                  My guess is it's probably more effective towards the end to leave the audience with a high as they exit the theater.

                  But maybe if you place the twist near the middle then you raise the audiences interest in the conclusion to a higher level, as in The Crying Game. Basically, because of the twist, the audience is more invested in the characters and outcome, and they enjoy the story more. They get to see how it plays out.

                  Anyone have any ideas?
                  Last edited by Maclean; 02-22-2007, 06:16 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Twists that were never set-up

                    The new version of Planet of the Apes. Twist was major letdown.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Twists that were never set-up

                      What does it mean if a person like myself doesen't see the twist in some movies right away or even realize they are being setup for a twist. Some movies like Secret Window are painfully obvious and miss the mark by a hundred miles. But with other movies that have been previously mentioned like fight club, vanilla sky, and matchstick men, I remember emjoying the movies greatly and not feeling cheated or let down by their twists at all. In fact the twists added to the storyline for me. However I'm disturbed by the growing trend of movies almost having to require a twist to somehow make the plot more complex.

                      I've been trying to work up the courage to try and start writing an honest to goodness script but sometimes I wonder if I should bother because I seem to be taken into plot twists that many others see coming from a mile away.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Twists that were never set-up

                        I'm writing a script now that has a big reveal (twist) at the end...

                        BUT the script doesn't revolve around it. It hopefully adds to the story and doesn't over power the story like an M. Night film.

                        I think we had this discussion before and agreed the key to any twist is the story itself is should be strong enough to stand on its own without the twist because essentially this IS what the story "is" (should be) when you're watching it the first time.

                        I think this thread is focusing on the other end of the spectrum where the twist wasn't set up enough during the story, so it feels like a Deus Ex Machina, or just a cheat when it is revealed -- Both of which = emotionally unsatisfying negative feelings by the audience.

                        You argue that twists like Vanilla Sky, and others were set up properly.

                        Good.

                        This is one of those issues which may or may not be wholly subjective...

                        But on the other hand execution (or lack there of) of a twist does rely on the skill of the film makers (directors; writers) as well.

                        So, it can go either way in my opinion.
                        Positive outcomes. Only.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Twists that were never set-up

                          Ash in Alien was never set-up.

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