Film Noir/Neo Noir?

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  • #31
    Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

    Write what moves you and don't worry too much about genres.

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    • #32
      Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

      Deep.

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      • #33
        Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

        Originally posted by qualitycontrol View Post
        Tuska states that "film noir is a perspective on life.- It is a pessimistic and dark vision of the world, but he goes on to state that a noir can only be a truly black film if it follows through with its narrative darkness and gives us the unhappy ending we're being cued for. Noir must be dark; there is no room for a happy ending or feel good resolution. There have been many cases of melodrama falsely considered film noir; most of these almost-noirs are part of the "film gris- or "gray film- phenomenon which is common in films of the classic period as well as the neo-noir. Tuska regards these films as having noir characteristics but opting out at the last moment for a crowd-pleasing conclusion.

        This is what has always bothered me about L.A. Confidential. The whole film is set up to have a downer ending but then it punks out at the end. Bud White lives & he and the hooker ride off into the sunset together.

        Everyone calls it a Neo-Noir Film, but to be noir you have to have a tragic ending. Noirs are tragedies.


        I consider Noir a sub-genre of various other genres, mostly the Thriller.

        And knowing genre is important b/c that's the way movies are packaged & sold in the US. If you aren't familiar with the theory & practice of genre, you are at a disadvantage as a pro-writer.

        What you shouldn't worry about is following genre conventions to the letter, to the point where you're writing by the numbers. And writers shouldn't worry too much about mixing genres. Mixing genres is part of what makes screenwriting fun & creative.

        "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

        ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

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        • #34
          Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

          Originally posted by Taotropics
          Superb post - great definition of noir.
          Thanks, Tao. Means a lot to me that it mattered.

          Focus groups and movie-goers in general need to understand pessimistic cinema can be beautiful.

          Looking forward to your neo-noir.

          Originally posted by P.G. Bauhaus
          For the people who see noir as a style or a worldview, do you consider a specifically "down" ending to be a prerequisite? Would you consider a movie like The Parallax View a noir? What about the ending of the Big Sleep or the Long Goodbye?
          The definition of noir I posted is from my BA thesis on neo-noir. I think I read somewhere you did Critical Studies at USC? I did the same thing but at SUNY Purchase. To answer your question, The Parallax View, in particular is often cited as a neo-noir. I go along with that and in my work also examined other neo-noirs of the time (i.e. The Conversation), which often were called "noia" films for their paranoid natures. The big second wave of noir, I feel, was in the 1970's with these conspiracy films. They have a lot of thriller in them, yes, but they're dark to the core. The Parallax View is brilliant.

          I believe films with non-downer endings are cop outs and simply have noir elements. L.A. Confidential is the biggest headache of this syndrome. Keep in mind, I don't need an everyone dies or the world is such garbage type of ending. If its almost apathetic in nature (i.e. Chinatown) it's all good.

          Sometimes the noir element movies are bad and sometimes they're really good. Just in my critical writing I am not going to call them a TRUE black film if they don't have the balls to go all the way. I like some of these wanna-be noirs. So, it is really a matter of taste. I just don't think of them purely noir in nature.

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          • #35
            Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

            Originally posted by qualitycontrol View Post
            The definition of noir I posted is from my BA thesis on neo-noir. I think I read somewhere you did Critical Studies at USC?
            Yes, but genre studies were not really emphasized. To be honest it never occurred to me that there was a big debate over the "genre vs. style" issue or that it even mattered.

            Originally posted by qualitycontrol View Post
            which often were called "noia" films for their paranoid natures.
            Haha, nice. I've never heard that term. I love that period though.

            Originally posted by qualitycontrol View Post
            Sometimes the noir element movies are bad and sometimes they're really good. Just in my critical writing I am not going to call them a TRUE black film if they don't have the balls to go all the way. I like some of these wanna-be noirs. So, it is really a matter of taste. I just don't think of them purely noir in nature.
            Here's the problem I have with these categories. I understand this idea of a certain mood or dark worldview that spans films in different genres from different eras. You can call it noir if you like. But there is also undeniably a certain period (maybe not a genre but at least a movement) of '40s and '50s hardboiled crime films shot in black and white with expressionistic lighting that is also called noir. And by extension there are modern films that consciously try to mimic, parody or nostalgically revive those films, and in doing so they, in my opinion, deserve to be called neo-noir.

            So there are two distinct categories at play and they unfortunately share the same name. Your definition includes the Parallax View but would exclude the Big Sleep and L.A. Confidential? So what name do you assign to the genre or movement that I know as noir? Do you just consider them "crime" films?

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            • #36
              Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

              Originally posted by P.G. Bauhaus View Post
              Here's the problem I have with these categories. I understand this idea of a certain mood or dark worldview that spans films in different genres from different eras. You can call it noir if you like. But there is also undeniably a certain period (maybe not a genre but at least a movement) of '40s and '50s hardboiled crime films shot in black and white with expressionistic lighting that is also called noir. And by extension there are modern films that consciously try to mimic, parody or nostalgically revive those films, and in doing so they, in my opinion, deserve to be called neo-noir.

              So there are two distinct categories at play and they unfortunately share the same name. Your definition includes the Parallax View but would exclude the Big Sleep and L.A. Confidential? So what name do you assign to the genre or movement that I know as noir? Do you just consider them "crime" films?
              The era you'd call noir is what I'd call noir. It is the most popular time of noir. Some of the films simply have the style of noir without the full-blooded tone of noir, as Schrader stated: "almost every dramatic Hollywood film from 1941 to 1953 contains some noir elements." People, including well-known theorists, even Schrader, have forced artificial deadlines on this. If you really look at the time period that people claim to be the be all and end all of noir... It doesn't just suddenly END with Touch of Evil. There are several lesser known crime/noir films that come after this movie.

              Noir has been consistently made since the "closing" of said movement. It sometimes isn't as popular, it hides in the shadows of those late 50's B-releases. It extended into the 60's and till today. It just isn't over, over.

              When I mean the dark view of the world I don't mean a Bergman picture. Noir isn't just dark but as you said, but a style too, and often features the self-destruction of characters. Tuska also wrote on noir that "Characters will willingly lie, deceive, and kill one another in a desperate struggle to avoid their own fated destructions in these narratives." I believe this and live by it. So, you might think my idea is very strict. But, I feel like for me to label a film black it better give me black. I just think the cop-out movies are gris, not true noir. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying they're bad movies.

              One thing I find refreshing about some neo-noirs is how they ditch the overt low-key lighting. Pieces like Memento for instance start to develop their own style, look, and remain in the noir fashion. Very cool to see something not just mimic the past. However, I do appreciate those too but it isn't as moving to me. Noir isn't just about light.

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              • #37
                Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                I disagree that Noir is a genre. Adam said it right when he said it is a style. Same with surrealism.

                High five!
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                • #38
                  Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                  Originally posted by qualitycontrol View Post
                  The era you'd call noir is what I'd call noir. It is the most popular time of noir. Some of the films simply have the style of noir without the full-blooded tone of noir, as Schrader stated: "almost every dramatic Hollywood film from 1941 to 1953 contains some noir elements." People, including well-known theorists, even Schrader, have forced artificial deadlines on this. If you really look at the time period that people claim to be the be all and end all of noir... It doesn't just suddenly END with Touch of Evil. There are several lesser known crime/noir films that come after this movie.

                  Noir has been consistently made since the "closing" of said movement. It sometimes isn't as popular, it hides in the shadows of those late 50's B-releases. It extended into the 60's and till today. It just isn't over, over.

                  When I mean the dark view of the world I don't mean a Bergman picture. Noir isn't just dark but as you said, but a style too, and often features the self-destruction of characters. Tuska also wrote on noir that "Characters will willingly lie, deceive, and kill one another in a desperate struggle to avoid their own fated destructions in these narratives." I believe this and live by it. So, you might think my idea is very strict. But, I feel like for me to label a film black it better give me black. I just think the cop-out movies are gris, not true noir. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying they're bad movies.

                  One thing I find refreshing about some neo-noirs is how they ditch the overt low-key lighting. Pieces like Memento for instance start to develop their own style, look, and remain in the noir fashion. Very cool to see something not just mimic the past. However, I do appreciate those too but it isn't as moving to me. Noir isn't just about light.
                  I bet you're a big fan of the FILM NOIR READER series?

                  And if not, you mentioning Paul Schrader and all...I know you'd enjoy all of the volumes in the series. Some really high grade essays from not only the 90's and now, but essays written during the height of noir(late 40's/early 50's), in which the term noir really isn't used.

                  You're not Glen Erikson, James Ursini or Alain Silver are you? Cause if you are...sign my books.
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                  • #39
                    Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                    I don't like calling Noir a genre as well though I can see how it can be termed as one.
                    One meets his destiny often in the road he takes to avoid it. - French Proverb

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                    • #40
                      Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                      Originally posted by OzFade View Post
                      I don't like calling Noir a genre as well though I can see how it can be termed as one.
                      I don't like calling anything a genre. A script is what it is. Labels are for critics and marketers, not writers.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                        I like that frame of mind too, deadeye; however, some of my mentors who have worked and are still working in the film writing biz, term themselves-or identify themselves, if you will-as genre writers.

                        Genre is an invisible sticker when you get right down to it. You can present your work to a consumer(producer, studio, whatever...)who markets/produces films that bear that same invisible sticker. It facilitates the entire marketing process from their end.

                        With that said, I'm a HUGE subscriber to non-genre writing, or whatever the popular term for that is. Not because it doesn't have a particular market; but rather, because it's the kind of writing that really seems to save people(figuratively speaking). It isn't just one genre, you know. In fact, it's more like two or three-perhaps even four-genres. And that is a work choc-full-of dramatic human emotion.

                        It's like...none of us here are going to pitch a script to consumers and cover the many faces of noir. If you are, you've got one patient-motherfunking-listener.
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                        • #42
                          Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                          TATAM, answer your PMs.

                          I thought you were sending me your script?
                          sigpic

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                          • #43
                            Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                            Originally posted by Adam Isaac View Post
                            I like that frame of mind too, deadeye; however, some of my mentors who have worked and are still working in the film writing biz, term themselves-or identify themselves, if you will-as genre writers.

                            .
                            If they define themselves as writers that way and pass that on to you then your mentors are doing you a diservice.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                              Originally posted by Adam Isaac View Post
                              I bet you're a big fan of the FILM NOIR READER series?

                              And if not, you mentioning Paul Schrader and all...I know you'd enjoy all of the volumes in the series. Some really high grade essays from not only the 90's and now, but essays written during the height of noir(late 40's/early 50's), in which the term noir really isn't used.

                              You're not Glen Erikson, James Ursini or Alain Silver are you? Cause if you are...sign my books.
                              I know the series. I read some of it. However, I didn't use it as the main source of my noir studies. I should probably give it another read over. So, no, I'm not one of the authors. I've written on the subject but am yet to be published myself.

                              A good book on the evolution of the neo-noir is "Detours and Lost Highways: A Map of Neo-Noir" by Foster Hirsch. It is a good guide through neo-noir seemingly geared more towards pedestrian reading than hardcore film theorist works (like the dense work of Robert Kolker for example, although his "A Cinema of Loneliness" is a great examination into some of these themes, particularly the 70's -- unfortunately, the new edition has removed the chapter on Coppola and The Conversation.)

                              I think Jon Tuska's "Dark Cinema: American Film Noir in Cultural Perspective" is an unknown utter classic. I think he has the best line of thought on the subject. Although, I might just think that because he thinks what I think on most issues. Also check out "Movies and Mass Culture" edited by John Belton for the essential Schrader writings on the subject.

                              And a warning: stay away from Robert Schwartz's "Neo-Noir: The New Film Style," it is easily the worst book I've ever read on this topic or film in general. It ends up being pretty much a list of movies he likes and he even mixes up character names in his Usual Suspects run down. Pathetic!

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                              • #45
                                Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                                PM coming your way, QC.

                                It's noir related, but I really think it would be great to have you on board for something I'm throwing together on DD in January.

                                I just got slammed, I'll have to PM you later this evening.
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