Film Noir/Neo Noir?

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  • Film Noir/Neo Noir?

    Anybody writing a noir or neo noir film?

    I am planning another completely different draft of a script I have been working on for some time and have recently thought it would work well as a neo noir type film.

    It is a supernatural crime thriller which has dark undertones and thought while it is currently set in present NYC, the supernatural element might be more believable set in a fictional city that mirrors NYC.

    Is noir a hard sell for a spec script?

    Any thoughts are welcome...
    I wanna tell you about the time I almost died....


  • #2
    Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

    Noir seemed like it was dying out only a few years ago, but I'm seeing more and more films take this route of late.

    Go with your gut.
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    • #3
      Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

      Searching through old posts it appears you are the voice of Noir, Adam.

      Does Se7en really constitute neo noir, or is it borderline?

      I don't want to go the extreme of noir but I am thinking of something between that of Se7en and perhaps Batman Begins.

      I don't know much about noir, am I opening up a can of worms here?

      Do I need to study film noir in depth to write a neo noir script?

      Excuse my ignorance on this subject, for I do not know.
      I wanna tell you about the time I almost died....

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      • #4
        Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

        It's hard to be particularly successful selling a script that hems extremely closely to the noir tradition. Most of those film premises wouldn't be "big enough" now, evidenced by how The Lookout barely registered at the box office and how L.A. Confidential, singled out even at the time as the most brilliant film of that year, struggled to make a profit.

        However, the classic noir genre features some of the strongest storytelling you could see on film, so whether or not you plan on writing neo noir material, you should study (and enjoy) it as much as possible.

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        • #5
          Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

          The difference between Noir and Neo-Noir is that Film Noir supposedly stopped after '58 with 'Touch of Evil', even that I've heard '62. But, I have no idea why I think that... or where I remember that.

          I remember Neo Noir starting with Chinatown and Roman Polanski, but they have Solent Green in 1973 and being listed as Neo... I'd say Chinatown('74) and Polanski, are the defination of Neo-Noir, if not Blade Runner('82) and Ridley Scott.

          As Film Noir is Howard Hawks, and John Huston.
          But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

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          • #6
            Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

            Yeah, most of what I've heard is that either Touch of Evil or Psycho is considered the end-point of the classic noir genre.

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            • #7
              Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

              I don't understand what you think you need to change about your story to make it more noir. Why not just try to write with a dark, hardboiled sensibility without necessarily worrying if you're being noir enough. There's no reason to shoehorn a femme fatale into your story or anything like that. Although I would say that actually setting your story in NY is more noir than trying to create a fictionalized Gotham City sort of setting.

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              • #8
                Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                Originally posted by TATAM78 View Post
                Searching through old posts it appears you are the voice of Noir, Adam.

                Does Se7en really constitute neo noir, or is it borderline?

                I don't want to go the extreme of noir but I am thinking of something between that of Se7en and perhaps Batman Begins.

                I don't know much about noir, am I opening up a can of worms here?

                Do I need to study film noir in depth to write a neo noir script?

                Excuse my ignorance on this subject, for I do not know.
                Nah, I just love pretty much everything about it. Feels more human to me than anything else, and that always brings me back to it.

                I'm a huge fan really. A student. That's it.
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                • #9
                  Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                  Film noir is no genre. It's a style that crosses every genre.

                  Casablanca, the Universal Monster movies, Metropolis, and it extends as far as Blade Runner, Alien, and Duel in the Sun.

                  It's freedom to challenge the norm, and not feel guilty about doing it. It sort of just 'is.'

                  It's a mirror of realism, but it accents human drama as if the mirror could shatter at any moment.
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                  • #10
                    Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                    yes study the genre you're going to work in. how would it make sense to not do that?

                    That's like saying, "I'm gonna drive to teh store." without knowing how to drive, or even having a car.

                    Learn the conventions. know why and how things are done in a noir script.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                      Originally posted by Adam Isaac View Post
                      Casablanca, the Universal Monster movies, Metropolis, and it extends as far as Blade Runner, Alien, and Duel in the Sun.
                      That's an awfully broad definition of noir. Metropolis is German Expressionism which in turn influenced the look of Universal horror movies and then later Film Noir, but that doesn't mean that these are all "noir." I think most people use the term to describe a certain period of american crime films. The noir sensibility of course crept into other genres and was adopted by filmmakers in other countries but those are exceptions to the rule.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                        Traditional film noir is pretty fatalistic.

                        All of the characters are flawed and fvcked up in some way.

                        There are anti-heroes and clearly defined bad guys (who are worse than the anti-heroes), but sometimes the things the supposed good guys do borderline on making them unlikable. Hence, everyone is guilty and no one is innocent.

                        There's Femme Fatales and other genre staples (infidelity; big conspiracies; network of lies; etc.), but one thing to remember is the resolution sought never lives up to its ideals. This isn't a rule, or guideline. Just something I've noticed in many noir-type stories. There is resolution (the identity of the killer; bad guys get their comeuppance), but it's never ideal compared to other genres. In noir, if the protag can at least break even that is good enough vs. other genres where they "live happily ever after".

                        I've referenced this before, but if you can...

                        Rent Season I and II of Veronica Mars.

                        Rob Thomas (creator) wrote this as Neo Noir. And it shows. It has all of the elements classic noir stories have. Plus it has his spin for a contemporary high school student detective who lives in a town where nothing is as it seems.
                        Positive outcomes. Only.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                          Originally posted by P.G. Bauhaus View Post
                          That's an awfully broad definition of noir. Metropolis is German Expressionism which in turn influenced the look of Universal horror movies and then later Film Noir, but that doesn't mean that these are all "noir." I think most people use the term to describe a certain period of american crime films. The noir sensibility of course crept into other genres and was adopted by filmmakers in other countries but those are exceptions to the rule.

                          No they're not film noir, but just as you say, the motifs and the style run far deeper into the mise en scene of that Expressionism's imprint on film noir.

                          If someone says, "What are the shades of film noir?" Yes, we could all give these conventional pieces-both narrative and visual-that shapes what film noir is.

                          I'm at the office, but this is my favorite subject...let's go deeper into it, because folks...I'm going to tell you something, take the CASABLANCA out of what we know as Casablanca and you have a noir film.

                          Some consider M to be the godfather, but the film that I consider the first true film noir is STRANGER ON THE THIRD FLOOR, and then PHANTOM LADY after that, then THE STRANGER, and so forth.

                          I think we'd all be doing ourselves a disservice if we look at film noir as a 'genre.' The same can be said for even moreso for Neo-noir. We can see what makes it noir, but I've never liked the idea of consciously thinking, "Hey, this is film noir." Genre is too concrete a label for film noir.

                          I've got to step off...but in two hours...I'll be back. And we'll look at Western noir, and some of the more discrete cross-overs noir has made throughout time.

                          It's theme, it's style, it's tone. It's in itself a form of Self-Expressionism that continue to change and reshape over time. I'll be back.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                            Originally posted by Adam Isaac View Post
                            I'm going to tell you something, take the CASABLANCA out of what we know as Casablanca and you have a noir film.
                            Well, Casablanca is pretty much a textbook film noir except that it's set in Morocco rather than Los Angeles. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

                            Originally posted by Adam Isaac View Post
                            Some consider M to be the godfather,
                            Sounds good to me.

                            Originally posted by Adam Isaac View Post
                            but the film that I consider the first true film noir is STRANGER ON THE THIRD FLOOR, and then PHANTOM LADY after that, then THE STRANGER, and so forth.
                            I haven't seen any of these but I'll have to check them out.

                            Originally posted by Adam Isaac View Post
                            I think we'd all be doing ourselves a disservice if we look at film noir as a 'genre.' The same can be said for even moreso for Neo-noir. We can see what makes it noir, but I've never liked the idea of consciously thinking, "Hey, this is film noir." Genre is too concrete a label for film noir.
                            I think noir is defnitely a genre but I also agree that there is a broader noir sensibility that is maybe what you're getting at.

                            I don't think it's doing noir a disservice to call it a genre though. If anything I think that calling noir a genre kind of elevates it up a level and makes it into something bigger that has sustained beyond the '40s, rather than just seeing it a stylistic subset of the thriller. If noir is just a style that means that it can fall out of style whereas thinking of it as a genre means that it is an archetypal category of storytelling that is ultimately timeless.

                            This kind of makes the question of neo-noir problematic for me though because I tend to think of neo-noir as a style that directly references '40s noir either nostalgically or ironically. Some modern films that have a true noir sensibility about them but don't obviously reference the classical noir period may not even be identified as film noir while something like The Big Lebowski is obviously playing with noir conventions without really using any of noir's stylistic elements. Alien is stylistically influenced by noir while Blade Runner is overtly neo-noir. I don't know, what do you think?

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                            • #15
                              Re: Film Noir/Neo Noir?

                              I'm sorry, I had suits popping in and out there for a minute. End of the day crunch and everything in the office was due yesterday....

                              I don't want to paint the term 'genre' too black. I'm the first to guy to scream out 'Film Noir' if someone needs clarification on the particular brand of crime drama I like to watch. For communicating with another person or persons, the term 'genre' becomes a valid and valuable nomenclature.

                              What I was trying to get to earlier was pointing out some examples that sort of defy a genre or the genre of noir. Take a look at a film I re-watched last night: Crossfire. Okay, here's an Academy award winning film noir from the late 40's about Racism(the anti-semitic type) only a few years after World War II. An incredibly important film on a number of obvious fronts. Yes, it's Drama. Yes, it's taut enough to be a Thriller. And yes, it is Film Noir. So, we have a high concept Drama/Thriller/Suspense film noir. No true genre, but if you want to rent it you'll find it under Drama. There isn't any doomed heroes in this film or deadly femme fatales. There's something to be said about humanity within the film's story, and that makes it tougher to throw in the genre box.

                              Then, another film noir dealing with something that has plagued this country for a century or more is Anthony Mann's Border Incident. Injustices happening on the Mexican-American border within the film in an almost Documentary style context(that's why Anthony Mann was a true legend in my book). Rather than the doomed hero, we've got Federales going undercover to uncover a nefarious human trafficing outfit. There is doom, but there's a much more resilient message of hope and helping others in a crisis situation underneath the doom. Again, a high concept Action/Thriller film noir...not too easy to classify with 100% certainty.

                              Has anyone ever seen the film from Twentieth called Fourteen Hours? Great movie. The entire film takes place on the ledge of a tall skyscraper, and the plot entails basically two men: the guy who wants to jump, and the police officer who's never met the guy before, but who gets stuck trying to talk the guy into not jumping. This motif has been used in many films, but there isn't that many where the entire film is the scene where the guy wants to jump off. Perhaps one of the most ingenious ways to do a character study film...it's very tense and gripping and yet still so confined in terms of space. There's a message in this one too.

                              So many of the compelling film noir pictures fall into the same 'non-category.' We're able to feel things we don't feel in genre cinema--recognizable things; that while very dramatic, are also tangible in a manner that sort of reminds us what's it's like to be alive, and to be human.

                              What could or would happen to someone like you or me in a given situation.

                              Difficultly sometimes arises when creative people hear 'Realism.' 'Be true to Realism'...and all of that. Real is only powerful when it's not conforming to a string a guidelines or set methods. That's a new pinnacle of drama, in my opinion.

                              I look at film noir like two beautiful women: on the left, the dishy doll that exudes what cool is...and lives it...her body is just that thing you want; on the right, the honest gal that makes your insides feel weird because she taps into the emotions you hide from everyone else...she gives you hope through the pain.

                              Love or Lust...that's what film noir is, baby.

                              Buy the ticket...steal the Hunter Thompson quote.
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