Troll's night out

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  • Troll's night out

    Jesus Christi, what is going on with this place?

    I understand in theory that message boards must endure this kind of troll penetration, and that the moderators here are doing their best to keep the dialogue civil while still democratic and open.

    But there really is something systemically amiss when the board's single most generous contributor - Chris - is so outrageously and personally attacked. Chris has done more for new writers and gotten less back for it then literally anyone I know. He has posted here and on his other site for as long as I can remember, has championed new writers and new scripts in his seminars, and has done so without being the kind of pocket picking super guru that he would have every right to be. In posting here, he has given writers with no representation, no connections and no geographic leverage the kind of in depth information that I would have killed to get when I was breaking in. And I still don't understand what he gets out of it!

    CE and I are not fools - we realize that a warm, enduring bond exists with the vast majority of writers here, and although sometimes debate focusses more on our opinions than others, I assure you that I read carefully, listen, and get a lot out of these forums and I'm sure Chris does too.

    But the fact of the matter is that as of this moment, trolls have hijacked this board. A small minority of posters are not debating, they are baiting, attacking and flaming - all the time, idiotically, over everything. And they are focussing their slug-like attention on the posters that are most prominent, knowledgeable and generous: like Chris.

    It is simplest of course to hit the ignore button, but debate is still skewed because all don't do this. It is momentarily satisfying to flame back but it's aggravating to be mildly irritated all the time while posting. It is theoretically possible and certainly advisable to stay 'above it all' and just never respond to personal attacks. But the problem is that Chris and Bill M. (look out Bill, you're next) and other pros beside myself have allowed the veil of anonymity to be drawn in this forum and have trusted that the posters here would not take advantage of this to use our "public" personas against us. It is the height of cowardice to hide behind handles and spew invective when those you are insulting have allowed their names, careers and work to become public knowledge.

    I don't know what the rules are - i just know that Chris should not have to listen to that bull****. If that means mods should act sooner? Mods should allow Survivor like "voting off the island" by supermajority for permanent troublemakers? I don't claim to have the answers, but I would like someone to explain to me how other boards have handled these problems so that the "everybody loses" step of actual pros really permanently leaving the board and hiding in ivory tower "pro" sites like WGA or PEN or tracking boards doesn't have to happen.

  • #2
    Re: Troll's night out

    It's the chance you take with a public forum, Tao. Nothing can be done about it, really. The internet is the internet. It doesn't matter what the topic of discussion is; it's the same all over cyberspace.

    And if the admins step in and ban the trolls, more trolls will pop up in their place. The internet abhors a vacuum.

    Now, if I were drunk (like I was last Monday), I'd post a semi-coherent rant advising you, CE, Bill Martell, Minibrain (if she still posts here; my guess is she got fed up and left) and others to leave. (Sort of like I did last Monday.)

    But I'm sober (well, almost), and I KNOW there are plenty of serious writers on this board. Your advice is definitely appreciated.
    Ralphy's Fvcking Blog

    "
    Ever notice how 'monogamy' rhymes with 'monotony'?" -- Christian Troy

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Troll's night out

      I'm sure that other trolls might pop up but, if the mods were to start nipping that crap in the bud as soon as it hits (another board I post on consistently bans trolls within just a few posts), it could be seriously detered to the point of being only a rare occurrence rather than an obnoxious nuisance.

      I will say this, though. Tao and Chris's recently derailed-by-trolls threads have encouraged me to get off my butt and start writing again soon.

      Well, not the threads themselves so much as Tao and CE's posts.


      p.s. Hi Tony.
      "Tact's just 'not saying true stuff.' " - Cordelia Chase

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Troll's night out

        Start writing again. Absolutely.

        And quit being a drama king.
        Ralphy's Fvcking Blog

        "
        Ever notice how 'monogamy' rhymes with 'monotony'?" -- Christian Troy

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Troll's night out

          Ha. Yeah, I just caught that thread earlier tonight. Funny stuff.
          "Tact's just 'not saying true stuff.' " - Cordelia Chase

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Troll's night out

            I don't mean to criticize the mods who obviously have their hands full, but I don't think locking a thread is the best way to go. Obviously the thread that was started to simply attack creativeexec should have been locked or deleted but I don't see any reason to lock threads that actually have some interesting discussion. That's letting the trolls win.

            Perhaps a better approach would be to delete any post that is a personal attack and then ban users the second or third time one of their posts gets deleted. Of course people will immediately re-register under another name but when their posts are continually deleted and the conversation goes on without them they will gradually fade away.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Troll's night out

              As far as I'm concerned there's only one rule on Done Deal. No personal insults. Maybe some of the new users simply need to be aware of that.
              A lovely being, scarcely formed or moulded,
              A rose with all its sweetest leaves yet folded.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Troll's night out

                maybe we need a rewards program where everyone who has been good gets a cookie at the end of the month.
                "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars... The rest I just squandered."
                George Best

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Troll's night out

                  Originally posted by Taotropics View Post
                  Jesus Christi, what is going on with this place?
                  snipped

                  .
                  Why do you give CE (chris?) a free ride? He provokes, taunts, attacks, uses coarse language as well. This is a double standard and typical and symptomatic of the kind of incestuous relationships that form in these communities. For me at least, your outrage rings hollow.

                  This place is vacuum chamber.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Troll's night out

                    Originally posted by Taotropics View Post

                    But the fact of the matter is that as of this moment, trolls have hijacked this board. A small minority of posters are not debating, they are baiting, attacking and flaming - all the time, idiotically, over everything. And they are focussing their slug-like attention on the posters that are most prominent, knowledgeable and generous: like Chris.

                    I don't know what the rules are - i just know that Chris should not have to listen to that bull****. If that means mods should act sooner? Mods should allow Survivor like "voting off the island" by supermajority for permanent troublemakers? I don't claim to have the answers, but I would like someone to explain to me how other boards have handled these problems so that the "everybody loses" step of actual pros really permanently leaving the board and hiding in ivory tower "pro" sites like WGA or PEN or tracking boards doesn't have to happen.
                    It's sad to think of how much this board has eroded.

                    I'm glad posters like you and Chris are toughing it out.

                    I imagine this recent wave of idiots will disperse soon enough.

                    I mean, you're right, there isn't even healthy debating or argument going on...it's like: "I disagre (note the incorrect spelling) with your opinion so ummmmm YOU SUCK and you dye your hair and get manicures!"

                    I don't know what the mods can do? Maybe deploy a "quick hook" period where obvious idiots are immediately pinpointed and banned?

                    Regardless, I don't know if i'd have the patience that you and Chris have displayed, Tao.
                    "I hate to break it to you but there is no big lie. There is no system. The universe is indifferent.- - Don Draper

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                    • #11
                      Re: Troll's night out

                      I'm amazed that brianluce and maralyn are even still allowed to post here. The first of their bizarre personal attacks on CE should have had them banned. But they've been allowed to go on and on. Ridiculous.

                      The mods really have to step up here and stop giving the benefit of the doubt to posters who clearly are up to no good.

                      And can't you ban IP addresses? That should help solve the problem.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Troll's night out

                        I don't claim to have the answers, but I would like someone to explain to me how other boards have handled these problems so that the "everybody loses" step of actual pros really permanently leaving the board and hiding in ivory tower "pro" sites like WGA or PEN or tracking boards doesn't have to happen.
                        I used to help moderate a message board for a particular video game and we had VERY strict rules... Because of the nature of the forum. The subject matter itself and who primarily plays games (12-25-year olds) were the number one thing the rules were built around.

                        I felt it was very effective in keeping an open democratic forum, but one that was still on a very tight leash.

                        These posters should be banned:

                        -Maralyn
                        -Brianluce
                        -DramaKing

                        What they have done and CONSISTENTLY DO would fall under the guidelines of the board I used to moderate as the following offenses:

                        1) Blatant disrespect toward other posters and whose sole point is to flame bait, troll and disrupt threads.

                        2) Spam their opinions (posting the same thing over and over again).

                        3) Harassment of posters and making them feel uncomfortable (singling them out) so they don't want to post.

                        We used a three-strikes and you're out policy. It was very effective because Trolls usually take all of three, or four consistent posts to prove that's all they are there for. Hence, three strikes and they're gone. IP Banned as well.

                        We also took SCREEN SHOTS of the offending posts. We didn't just erase them like Mods on this site do. Thus, there is justification FOR the bans and evidence of no personal bias, or prejudice is going on.

                        I know the Mods are not on here 24/7, but they HAVE to start stepping up to the plate and DO THEIR JOB a lot more effectively. A lot of this inability comes from the fact they DON'T want to ban people because it makes them feel "bad" -- To be blunt. Guess what? Some people should not be allowed to interact with others the way they do on message boards.
                        Positive outcomes. Only.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Troll's night out

                          Brian, your response here proves that you are a troll, someone here only to cause trouble, and not worth reasoning with.

                          The very idea that you (or maralyn) or anyone would register here and start attacking people who have been posting here for years (the oldest register date on the board is May 2005 but most of us have been around for many more years than that) is beyond comprehension.

                          Anyone who gave a damn about the craft of writing, or gaining some insight into the business should have already searched and read both of their post archives, which go back for years and are probably worth more than any guru‘s book out there. And guess what? You won’t find any name-calling, provoking, taunting, attacking or course language. Or any evidence of ulterior motives for their being here (what would someone gain from reading Brian’s post history, except hate, anger and bile?).

                          And of course you’ll accuse me of being a sycophant (I think that’s today’s vocabulary word around here or something) but the fact of the matter is, there are too many people here who are unable to hide their jealousy and bitterness towards other people’s success, it’s so childish I’m actually embarrassed for you.

                          Here’s some proof for you: I don’t think I ever agreed with a single post Deus ever made here (when he used to post). He was way too academic and uptight about structure, not nearly imaginative enough or funny at all. In short, not a guy I’d like to go have a beer with. And yet, I could not be happier for anyone and their success. I am thrilled for him, and anyone else that finally makes it after years of hard work and perseverance.

                          That bitterness will kill you.

                          On the subject of message boards, it’s a tough call. Some boards ban users who ‘thread cap’ when they so much as post a dissenting opinion to the subject line. That’s marshal law, and not much use on a board where opinions are the subject matter most of the time.

                          I only post on one other message board besides Done Deal (I do have a life). It’s a professional board related to my day job (construction) where I post under my own (real) name.

                          The conversations are so esoteric, and our vernacular is so shorthand, it would be impossible for a troll to exist. One’s professionalism and intelligence become self-evident in one’s posts.

                          The problem is, due to the free flow of information in magazines and screenwriting blogs, anyone can ‘sound’ like a writer.

                          I have over 500 posts on this site, and in not a single one of them will you read about how “I was talking to my agent the other day” or “we went wide with my script” or “I just optioned my script to xxx” because those things are meaningless and not helpful to other writers. Anybody can register here and be a ‘writer’. But just try and say something insightful or meaningful (as Tao and CE do) or something that hasn’t been said to death.

                          Wow, that was a long way to go to say that I don’t have a solution to this problem.

                          On one hand, I kind of miss the days when writers were Men (I’m thinking Hemingway and Hunter Thompson) and not afraid to dust it up occasionally. Christ, even Truman “That’s not writing, that’s typing” Capote had more balls (and wit) than guys today.

                          I’m not a big fan of home-spun catch-phrases “Don’t feed the trolls, and they'll go away” or hiding behind mommy’s skirt (eg. Calling for a Mod to lock a thread). We need to all grow up.

                          I spent about a year away from this board because all the BS got tiring. The only reason I’ve been here lately is that I’m having a series of root canals done and have just been sitting home in a vicodin stupor.

                          Anyway, Tao and CE, I know neither of you have threatened to leave, but please please please don’t ever even consider it. You have no idea how many people you’re helping (I’m sure the lurkers outnumber the trolls 100-1) and its appreciated.



                          Ps- I do like Tao’s idea of a Dogville-style vote off for trouble makers.
                          Last edited by kintnerboy; 09-01-2007, 06:40 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Troll's night out

                            I agree with all about how annoying the board has become. That's probably why I am barely on here anymore.

                            The only distinction I would make is that a-holes should be dealt with because they are a-holes in general, not just because they are a-hole to CE or Tao. Despite the great advice those two (and others --Deus, anyone?) give/gave, no one likes a double standard.

                            Deal with all trolls, not just trolls that don't cowtow to the few real experts who actually post here.
                            Last edited by Joe Unidos; 09-01-2007, 06:13 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Troll's night out

                              I'm glad to say I missed the thread attacking Chris.
                              But I couldn't agree more that the nastiness has to go.
                              And also agree that CE has done huge things for many, many writers, and if the lynching of the helpful keeps up, this place will become nothing more than the blind leading the blind.

                              At it's best, DD is a truly fantastic place of like minded folks. Great friendships have been made here, and we've learned the best gift someone can give you is an honest, informed appraisal of your work. At it's worse, DD is like a room full of every bully from every 5th grade class across the country, all standing in line to make fun of one kid. Mob mentality at it's worse.

                              Deus left, and this place is less for it. Tao was thinking of it - and if he makes good on it, who is going to challenge the beginning writer to become their best, to inspire them to aim high?

                              If CE leaves, then the only place people are going to have left to find out how an agency works is by watching Entourage episodes. Don't think that will give you what you're looking for, you know?

                              Love the idea of increasing the speed with which "the bad ones" are thrown out, though I must say it's a shame it has to come to that, as I'm sure the mods have better things to do.

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