Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

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  • #31
    Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

    EJ, as always, much appreciated.
    @TerranceMulloy

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    • #32
      Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

      Refusal of CATALYST: If the catalyst is strong enough for the "hero" (personal), why refuse it? Never fully understood the (function of the) "refusal of the call/catalyst". Why does someone has to motivate our hero to deal with what the catalyst has already shown him/her to be right? It's just a show-stopper... What's the purpose?

      /H
      'Media is the evil of all evils, they tell you only what
      they want the story to be'¦'

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      • #33
        Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

        Originally posted by Zarakow View Post
        Refusal of CATALYST: If the catalyst is strong enough for the "hero" (personal), why refuse it? Never fully understood the (function of the) "refusal of the call/catalyst". Why does someone has to motivate our hero to deal with what the catalyst has already shown him/her to be right? It's just a show-stopper... What's the purpose?

        /H
        To answer your question, I refer you to the Unknown Screenwriter's post called The Protagonist's call to action dilemma. Unk knows what he's talking about.
        For more of my thoughts on screenwriting, check out my blog.
        Jonny Atlas Writes!

        - Sic Semper Tyrannis.

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        • #34
          Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

          Just looking at the 12 pages I've touched up today: I state the beginnings of the theme on the first page. It's all visual. On page 10, the theme is established, again, all visual. We know what she misses and what she wants without the protag ever mentioning it. Perhaps around page 3-4 I could feature the middle act (bridging) of the theme?
          "What's worse than being talked about? Not being talked about."

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          • #35
            Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

            Yeah, I've always been a little confused about the "refusal" thing.

            Could someone list a few movies that have obvious ones. I guess STAR WARS has a few lines where Luke doubts his "destiny" of whatever...

            I'm just not sure how important this point is or how many movies really emphasize it.

            And is it really needed??

            OPINIONS?...

            Thanks.


            "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

            ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

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            • #36
              Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

              Originally posted by stvnlra View Post
              Yeah, I've always been a little confused about the "refusal" thing.


              They refuse the call because there's something in their backstory maybe...some kinda fear that haunts them for the whole movie...that prevents them from saying "yes" right away. If there's something in their psyche that makes it hard for them to say yes then it should haunt them the whole movie stirring up internal conflict while they're doing their thing.

              It's like in every cop movie, the hero's partner is killed and he takes on the blame so when his boss calls upon him to catch a serial killer, he can;t do it because he fears he'll **** up again and kill a good guy. Then something happens that makes it really personal and he has no choice but to join the hunt for the killer. But he's still haunted by the guilt of his dead partner and that causes conflict for him during the movie and by the end he probably works it out, overcomes the fear (by overcoming some big obstacles) and he kills the killer.

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              • #37
                Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

                Originally posted by Gillyflower Cooms View Post
                They refuse the call because there's something in their backstory maybe...some kinda fear that haunts them for the whole movie...that prevents them from saying "yes" right away. If there's something in their psyche that makes it hard for them to say yes then it should haunt them the whole movie stirring up internal conflict while they're doing their thing.

                It's like in every cop movie, the hero's partner is killed and he takes on the blame so when his boss calls upon him to catch a serial killer, he can;t do it because he fears he'll **** up again and kill a good guy. Then something happens that makes it really personal and he has no choice but to join the hunt for the killer. But he's still haunted by the guilt of his dead partner and that causes conflict for him during the movie and by the end he probably works it out, overcomes the fear (by overcoming some big obstacles) and he kills the killer.
                Right right... I see what you're saying.

                But I usually just think of this as layers in the char, stuff that makes the char more human, not really as a "point" in the plot. It's something that's weaved thru the story or part of the char's personality.

                It seems the refusal is often presented or defined in some books and templates as a point or moment in the story that's dealt with, & then the story moves on, never to deal with it again.

                Maybe that's where I'm getting confused.

                "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

                ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

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                • #38
                  Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

                  Nearly all heroes refuse at first. It takes some pushing to get them started into the second act. Off the top of my head, Miss Congeniality or whatever it was called with Sandra Bullock. They need a FBI female to go undercover at the pageant. They don't have anyone suitable other than Sandra. They ask her, she says "no way in hell" or something like that. She and her mentor friend fight on the wrestling mat, him trying to get to do it, her not wanting to. At the end of the fight, she finally agrees.

                  That's typical of most movies. They don't want to do it at first, and if they did, the story would suffer for it. You can't have them happily accept this huge mission ahead of them.

                  CAPTAIN: Jones, I need you to quit your job, shave your head, and go after the deadly assasin. You will surely die on this mission.

                  JONES: Sure, no problem, Captain.

                  That's a sucky story. The guy should refuse. No way in hell is he doing that. Then his wife is kidnapped, or his child. That's when he decides to take the mission.

                  Hope that helps.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

                    then the story moves on, never to deal with it again.

                    Well, that's the way the Unknown Screenwriter blog makes it sound...but I'd disagree with that...I think it has to be more than just the character's pee pee hurting...although I might refuse a call if my pee pee hurt...but I think it's something deeper, painful and more frightening that forces the hero to refuse the call...The call is supposed to put the hero on a path to the thing he fears the most so it only makes sense that he'd refuse to answer the call.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

                      Originally posted by razerfish View Post
                      Nearly all heroes refuse at first. It takes some pushing to get them started into the second act. Off the top of my head, Miss Congeniality or whatever it was called with Sandra Bullock. They need a FBI female to go undercover at the pageant. They don't have anyone suitable other than Sandra. They ask her, she says "no way in hell" or something like that. She and her mentor friend fight on the wrestling mat, him trying to get to do it, her not wanting to. At the end of the fight, she finally agrees.

                      That's typical of most movies. They don't want to do it at first, and if they did, the story would suffer for it. You can't have them happily accept this huge mission ahead of them.

                      CAPTAIN: Jones, I need you to quit your job, shave your head, and go after the deadly assasin. You will surely die on this mission.

                      JONES: Sure, no problem, Captain.

                      That's a sucky story. The guy should refuse. No way in hell is he doing that. Then his wife is kidnapped, or his child. That's when he decides to take the mission.

                      Hope that helps.
                      It really depends on the story. A hero can accept the mission, then realises that there are consequences for his/her actions. Somewhere around page 60, the hero realises that it was his fault, he shouldn't have accepted the mission - the low point.
                      "What's worse than being talked about? Not being talked about."

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                      • #41
                        Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

                        The refusal happens in act one. Once he accepts, then you go to act two. Most stories have a 'refusal.' If not, it feels off to the audience, even without them knowing structure, it feels off. And your first act is very short.

                        You're talking about midpoint when something happens that changes everything. The stakes are raised. The low point doesn't come until well after that. That's when the hero has fought back and has lost, and it looks like he's finished. This is not the 'refusal'. Refusal belongs in first act. And most movies have one.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

                          Originally posted by razerfish View Post
                          The refusal happens in act one. Once he accepts, then you go to act two. Most stories have a 'refusal.' If not, it feels off to the audience, even without them knowing structure, it feels off. And your first act is very short.
                          I think it depends on the story you are telling: "accepting" is just as interesting and compelling as the "refusal".

                          He refuses at first, but then accepts.
                          He accepts (the audience knows he can't complete it) then he refuses (audience thinks this a wise move), but it's too late.

                          It boils down to the character and his environment. I do agree, many films take the "refusal" option.
                          "What's worse than being talked about? Not being talked about."

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                          • #43
                            Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

                            Originally posted by Zarakow View Post
                            Refusal of CATALYST: If the catalyst is strong enough for the "hero" (personal), why refuse it? Never fully understood the (function of the) "refusal of the call/catalyst". Why does someone has to motivate our hero to deal with what the catalyst has already shown him/her to be right? It's just a show-stopper... What's the purpose?

                            /H
                            The Hero often refuses because they know what the journey entails. They know it means leaving behind the "normal world" and entering a "new upside-down world" and it means confronting issues and demons from the past. Typically with hero journey's, they simply refuse the "call" because they are scared of change, and often need that nudge or debate from a mentor or someone "wise" to set them on the tracks for their journey.

                            That said, sometimes the hero doesn't refuse and is willing and happy to accept the challenge. Revenge movies or movies with very strong motives to get the "story going" will often have the refusal element removed. This doesn't make it a worse and lesser story, it's just a different story told.

                            EJ

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                            • #44
                              Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

                              Originally posted by razerfish View Post
                              Nearly all heroes refuse at first. It takes some pushing to get them started into the second act. Off the top of my head, Miss Congeniality or whatever it was called with Sandra Bullock. They need a FBI female to go undercover at the pageant. They don't have anyone suitable other than Sandra. They ask her, she says "no way in hell" or something like that. She and her mentor friend fight on the wrestling mat, him trying to get to do it, her not wanting to. At the end of the fight, she finally agrees.

                              That's typical of most movies. They don't want to do it at first, and if they did, the story would suffer for it. You can't have them happily accept this huge mission ahead of them.

                              CAPTAIN: Jones, I need you to quit your job, shave your head, and go after the deadly assasin. You will surely die on this mission.

                              JONES: Sure, no problem, Captain.

                              That's a sucky story. The guy should refuse. No way in hell is he doing that. Then his wife is kidnapped, or his child. That's when he decides to take the mission.

                              Hope that helps.

                              Yeah, that's a good example of an obvious 'refusal of the call'. I'm very familiar with this movie. Seen it like 15 times.

                              But I've never been convinced that all movies have this refusal (as a specific scene or sequence), or that it needs to be so obvious.

                              I don't know, maybe it's just me or the kinds of stories i want to tell. I don't think about this issue too much or emphisize it in my storytelling.

                              "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

                              ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

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                              • #45
                                Re: Hero Hybrid Structure Outline

                                Originally posted by EJ Pennypacker View Post
                                That said, sometimes the hero doesn't refuse and is willing and happy to accept the challenge. Revenge movies or movies with very strong motives to get the "story going" will often have the refusal element removed. This doesn't make it a worse and lesser story, it's just a different story told.

                                EJ
                                Yeah, that's kinda how I see it. I don't think it's necessary in all stories.

                                ... Or the doubt & second guessing of the protag might be found throughout the story, not just at one spot in Act I.

                                "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

                                ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

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