Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

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  • Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

    Change. It's all around us. It's all those cliches - inevitable, the only thing that's for sure, and well, honestly, a bit of a bitch, isn't it? But the Universe just keeps rolling and we have to evolve with it or become irrelevant.

    Used to be that screenwriting was strictly thought of as a three-act construct. Now, more and more writers choose to work with four acts. The Wave-inatrix switched over several years ago and never looked back. Most of us know that the three-act structure dictates a first act that ends at approximately page 30, and a second act that ends right around page 90 and a third act that takes your script right into the 120 page range. That's craziness.

    The problem with the three-act structure is that it is archaic and outdated. Expectations in the industry have shifted toward shorter, punchier scripts in which more happens faster. Call it ADD, call it whatever you want, but times, they are a' changin', kids.

    But change is good. From a writer's perspective, having a second act that lies there like a hot, 60 page prairie of pain is a challenge that frankly leaves many stories lost in the desert with no oasis in sight.

    Used to be that the inciting incident arrived right around page 10. And the first act break would then be at page 30. Midpoint, page 60. Second act break, page 90. That is for those of us who really tried to keep the math straight. And actually, Wavers, as geeky as it sounds, screenwriting is nothing if it isn't elegant math.

    But things are changing fast in the entertainment industry and it behooves writers to keep up with the trends and expectations that your script will be compared with.

    Executives increasingly look for shorter page count. They look for the first act break to happen much earlier. And that skews the whole structure differently, doesn't it? So are you keeping up with this, are you aware that the expectations are shifting?

    Thanks to the Rouge Wave, you are. So listen up kids, and don't argue with mama, because I know some of you will. Get familiar with these new expectations and implement them in your writing and in your grasp of structure.

    The new page 10 is page 3
    That's right - that's your inciting incident. Executives are tiring of 9 pages of set up. Go for it earlier. The earlier the better as long as your set up is still executed soundly and smoothly.

    The new page 30 is page 20
    Yup, move that first act break as close to page twenty as you can. I do not make this stuff up.

    The new midpoint is page 50
    Remember, we're shooting for roughly a 100 page script

    The new page 90 is page 75
    That's bumping your second act break back by 15 pages. Yep, that makes your third act short as hell. The acts are no longer divided evenly.

    In fact, here's what the whole structure should look like:

    Page 1 to 25 - act one
    page 26 to 50 - act two (a)
    page 51 to 75 - act two (b)
    page 76 to 100 - act three
    http://rougewave.blogspot.com/2008/0...pparently.html

    EJ

  • #2
    Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

    Guess I can sell all my screenwriting books now.

    I need the money anyway.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

      Fast forward a few years, the NEW MOVIE STRUCTURE!!!! ---

      http://www.5min.com/Video/Signs-that...p-is-over-6767

      lol

      I remember several reviews recently where critics complained that the storyline didn't go far enough and/or characters were undeveloped.

      I've thought the same thing, and with theater prices going up it leaves one with a 'reamed' sort of feeling that makes Netflix look more and more attractive.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

        Hmmm. So we should change the craft because a few (unnamed) executives with ADD are "tiring" of reading 9 pages of set-up?

        So we should strive to set-up the main characters, their world, and introduce the main dramatic question all within 3 pages?

        Total, utter, complete crap.

        I have no problem with a four act structure, in fact I use it myself. It's the same thing as the traditional 3 act structure, only you're dividing act two into 2 sections. It's a question of nomenclature and nothing more.

        But to suggest that scripts should now be 100 pages is not only ridiculous, but could be quite harmful to writers.

        First, is it true? Are the majority of specs selling today 100 pages in length regardless of genre? If not, there is no basis for this claim.

        Second, some stories can't be told in 100 pages. That is to say, they can't be told well. Getting to this length is not only a matter of truncating dialogue, it could require eliminating several beats that people are used to seeing in their movies. Beats that are there for a reason.

        This is a slippery slope, folks, and could effectively dumb down movies even more than they have been. What's next, 90 pages? 80 pages?

        Readers prefer short scripts. They're easier to read. Directors and producers do not, and ultimately they're the ones who are going to make the film. A great 116 page script will go a lot farther than an okay 100 page script.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

          Galahad - 120 pages
          Pan - 118 pages
          Passengers - 125 pages
          The Low Dweller - 116 pages

          to name a few.
          Sent from my iPhone. Because I'm better than you.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

            Yeah, this is a toughie, as I have encouraged people to try to cut their scripts down as much as possible. It's at 119? Get it to 110!

            But the problem is I'm doing that because most scripts have fat, not because of some new structure that's out there. Now, clearly, I don't know as much as experienced readers like those over at Script Department (who I have used and like), but my manager deals with the biggest prodcos in town on a regular basis and my latest two scripts are at 114 and 112, respectively, and he has not mentioned a single problem about length. In fact, I mentioned that I was worried about the 114-pager and he was like "it is what it is. trim where you can but let's not change the structure." My first act turn is around page 27.

            My .02.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

              People - what you want to do is SHOOT for as low a page count as you can and still tell your story well. If your script is 114 pages and it is compelling as all get out, great. But in my experience, nine times out of ten, scripts can and should be shorter - because of the aforementioned fat. No one should hew to a structure by exact page count - that's silly. But ask yourself - can I tell this story more effectively and efficiently? Most aspiring writers with the early to mid-drafts that I work with absolutely need to trim a lot of fat.

              Scripts that have sold are scripts that nailed the story within the page count comfortable for that story. But often, aspiring writers use that as an excuse to not trim off the ten pages they need to. ASPIRE to keep it as streamlined and effective as possible.

              Julie Gray



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              • #8
                Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

                honestly, the op is just a retread of the same thing- write fast and write lean. don't screw around with things that aren't necessary to the story.

                thre you go.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

                  I think page length varies on the genre. I'm writing a fast-paced dark romantic comedy that hit it's inciting incident on page 3. And by page 10, the story is in full swing. I'm pretty sure it'll be a 95 page draft.

                  I just read 'Duplicity' by Tony Gilroy and it was the fastest read ever... and it came out at 131 pages!

                  It all depends on what type of writer you are. I write tight scripts with a lot of white space. It's just how I write.

                  How about you?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

                    I would posit that most screenplays that sell do not contain ten to fifteen pages of fat. To suggest a new page count of 100 (which is what the article states) as the industry standard, suggests changing the structural paradigm most of us are used to. It suggests eliminating possibly an entire sequence (or more) in what might be a tight screenplay of 115 pages. It's easy to say, 'well it's perfectly obvious that what I was really saying is just keep things lean.' Many writers will weigh the status and experience of the article writer against their own status and experience and believe that they must now strive for 100 pages (or less) if they're going to have any chance of breaking through. And the real problem is that they will reach that 100 page mark, but they'll more than likely have just as much fat as if they ended at page 120. They will merely have sacrificed story.

                    If a scene doesn't either drive the story forward and/or illuminate some new aspect of a main character, then cut it.

                    Whenever possible, try to make sure scenes pull at least double-duty.

                    Try to keep it between 100-120 pages (110 being a good average to shoot for).

                    And every chance you get, turn, turn, turn the story.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

                      Originally posted by La Femme Joyeuse View Post
                      Executives increasingly look for shorter page count. They look for the first act break to happen much earlier. And that skews the whole structure differently, doesn't it? So are you keeping up with this, are you aware that the expectations are shifting?
                      LaFemme, please cite your executive sources for us.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

                        I have a 79 page horror script that I wrote in a week.

                        It tells the story, but it's crap.

                        I don't know how much that adds to the discussion, but, there you go.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

                          Originally posted by doubler
                          I have a 79 page horror script that I wrote in a week.

                          It tells the story, but it's crap.

                          I don't know how much that adds to the discussion, but, there you go.
                          https://actbreakdown.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

                            I think it would do well in the D2DVD market. Few characters. Few locations.

                            If that market wasn't oversaturated with horror movies already!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Interesting post over at Rogue Wave (re: new structure beats)

                              i have to say, those recommendations are pretty similar to the recommendations presented to me by my manager. i write comedies, which have to be punchy, quick reads. my management company (which is also a prodco) recommends a first act break at page 20, and a total page count of about 105 pages.

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