Things Don't Add Up Anymore

[pwrmyth]

I was just wondering how you feel as screenwriters when the movie you're watching has logic holes wide enough to drive a semi through. It seems like more often than not lately, things just don't add up the way they used to.

Maybe that has to do with modern audiences being "sophisticated" as some people say. We don't need to show anymore how the bad guys break into the building. We can just cut from them pulling up outside to blowing up the safe inside -- hey, the audience can figure out the rest.

In Get Smart, for example, Max inhales a blow dart that causes him to pass out. When he awakens, he's wearing a tux and voila, no more dart. How did 99 get that out? Where did the tux come from? ...Who cares???

I guess nobody cares. And yet... the joy of a really good film comes from savoring how the writer/s and filmmakers pulled it off. The Bourne series comes to mind. In fact, that's why I look forward to films written by old school writers: Paul Haggis, Tony Gilroy, Steve Zaillian, Scott Frank, Frank Darabont. They sweat the details. You can pretty much assume that if you missed something, it was your own fault. The pieces all add up -- it's up to you to figure out how.

Whereas... watching the standard fare film, your logic is assaulted at every turn. But does this bother you? And what bothers you more, the fact that the moviemakers didn't bother to vette the script, or that the audience doesn't seem to mind? Didn't slow Hancock any. Nor Indy 4. And on and on and on.

Why sweat the details if nobody really cares? That said, I'd rather aspire to be a Scott or a Zaillian than slide by. Craft matters. Doing it right matters.

Is that so crazy?

[jkk808]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

Yes. That is crazy.

Older movies are just as filled with plotholes, if not moreso.

Get Smart is a comedy. The blow dart thing was a bit. Get over it.

Hancock ruled. (Or, it was enjoyable enough and didn't suck).

Indy 4 sucked. But it wasn't logic holes that did that movie in.

[Popcorntreect]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

I don't think plot holes are important for movies that come out between May and October.

[Anitapooh]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

I love details and believe they are important.

Like watching how a guy breaks into a building is sometimes for me a very "OMG can he do it without getting caught? And what's behind that door?"
That's so essential when you build a story and try to hook the audience.
It's a mood, and then there is another mood afterwards.
It allows to build on us, compared to i.e. just seeing a bomb explode without knowing uhh...what happened? Ok...a bomb?? What? Where? Me?

If the movie just jumps back and forward in some rush and we are supposed to follow, most likely we won't fall in love with that movie.
But of course there are always some people who do, and yes that bothers me, because when we settle for less we will get less.
And these days there is less focus on building the story while paying attention to the audience and what they want.

I think it has to do with the commercial world we live in. We are used to seeing everything 100 times a day on TV. Nothing surprises us anymore. Everything floats.
It does create distance between us and the movie experience though.
That's probably why there are no longer any movies around that people will remember and be affected by for a long time.
And that's why I haven't been to the cinema for ten years

[Biohazard]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

I've always wondered how the old classics can stand up to decades of close scrutiny, yet flaws are immediately evident in today's films on first viewing.

[TheKeenGuy]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

Loop holes in films are usually the scars of forced rewrites as a result of stupid notes by the producers.

So no, I don't blame the screenwriter.

[dpaterso]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

I blame the actors. The A-listers who have the power to say, whoa, I'm not climbing into a fridge, and I'm not saying that crap, it makes me sound stupid, where's my friggin character arc, get me the screenwriter.

-Derek

[Signal30]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

Huh... I thought it was just me. I've been noticing over the past few years that there seems to be an increasing lack of Can't Be Bothered in films that should know better, with glaring potholes that could be fixed with just one quick line of dialogue.

Two that really bothered me were Flightplan and Minority Report, two films that could have been much tighter if they'd just tweaked the script a little... but came across like they figured that they were playing to the mouthbreathers, so why bother putting in the extra work to make the narrative threads tie together?

But it does seem to be getting to be more obvious, in more major pictures, in increasing numbers. Visually I enjoyed The Dark Knight, but on a narrative level it was as loaded with plotholes and disregard for any internal logic as any STDVD quickie.

This year has been especially bad for the problem, but I'm still blaming the writer's strike and projects rushed into production with unpolished scripts before it hit.

Although with the massive success of TDK, that sets a precedent that narrative logic is completely irrelevant as long as you keep the audience distracted by the flash.

But, then... "Dude, it's just a movie!"

[Biohazard]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

"Dude, it's just a movie!"

So is The Godfather.

No reason why all filmmakers can't strive for that level of quality.

Plus, there's the quote in my sig...

[GreatOz]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

Loop holes in films are usually the scars of forced rewrites as a result of stupid notes by the producers.

So no, I don't blame the screenwriter.

When I first read the thread, that's the exact thing that came to my mind. I've been asked by big production companies who you would think would know better to do ridiculous things to a story. I think there's a feeling in Hollywood that a writer should be able to take ANY note and somehow, magically, make it work and make sense.

I think some people give notes just to justify their existence in the Hollywood food chain.

[JeffLowell]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

Stupid kids! Everything used to be better! Bah!

[Signal30]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

Yeah... even "better" used to be better. Damn.

[ScriptShadow]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

Yeah, it was always this way. The longer you write, the more trained you become at detecting problems. So it just seems like there are more holes now. As far as Get Smart, I'm almost positive they cut the scene out that was supposed to be between those two. Not that it's an excuse. I'm just saying it wasn't a mistake at the writing stage.

Re: Get Smart - This was a movie I beleive was hurt by the current trend in screenwriting - which is to have your hero always drive the the story no matter what - Unfortunately that's just not Get Smart. Maxwell Smart was a bumbling idiot - which is what made all the goofball stuff in the old TV show work - In this film they tried to have their cake and eat it too, by having Maxwell Smart be a bumbling idiot yet also always in control of what was going on. It made no sense as a character and was a complete disaster in my eyes.

[Shari Hari]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

I think some people give notes just to justify their existence in the Hollywood food chain.

Don't just think it. Know it. Vomitoriously true.

[reddery]

Re: Things Don't Add Up Anymore

In fact, that's why I look forward to films written by old school writers: Paul Haggis, Tony Gilroy, Steve Zaillian, Scott Frank, Frank Darabont. They sweat the details. You can pretty much assume that if you missed something, it was your own fault. The pieces all add up -- it's up to you to figure out how.
I(')s ... so crazy?

you should look into the details of these writer's careers.

Adaptations of novels.

Coming from your own logic on this subject and never seeing 'Get Smart'...

Minority Report, ...(a film)... that could have been much tighter if they'd just tweaked the script a little(,) but came across like they figured that they were playing to the mouthbreathers, so why bother putting in the extra work to make the narrative threads tie together?

haven't seen the movie in a while. I'll probably go back and read the novel soon; give me an example of how it could been improved.

I've been asked by big production companies who you would think would know better to do ridiculous things to a story. I think there's a feeling in Hollywood that a writer should be able to take ANY note and somehow, magically, make it work and make sense.

Personally, I think any professional writer should be able to do that and observe any changes that are associated with it.