Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

[ScriptShadow]

Why can't Blake Snyder just admit he has no idea what to do between pages 30 and 55?

Okay, I agree with him that this is a great place to put scenes that fulfill the promise of the premise. But for someone that has the audacity to say that the break into act 2 has to happen at EXACTLY page 25, how can he possibly say with a straight face that 25 pages of a screenplay should be dedicated solely to trailer scenes?

There is an inference that the beginning of the B story should be included in this section, but he barely goes into it. Don't you think how to structure your B story would be way more valuable information than telling us to show some trailer scenes for 25 pages?

[Moviequill]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

for movies like Shoot em Up where it dives right into the inciting incident within 30 seconds, wouldn't that sort of force everything "down" or outside the 25-30 page rule?

if someone else were writing that very same story, it still would have worked if they gave us a 10 page intro of the characters, a bit more on the mother/baby etc...

I guess after awhile of following the rules we discover there really are none

[Angeloworx]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

It would be fine if those 25 pages were actually hinting at a story. Any coherent storyline. I recently saw the trailer for SPIRIT... it definitely falls into the Crap and Stupid category.

[Joaneasley]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

Those pages from 30 to 50 cover the time when the character is in the new story world of Act II, getting acquainted with the strange new reality in clumsy/funny ways. That's when the audience gets to see how your character is woefully unprepared for the giant, unexpected challenges he or she suddenly faces. You use this section to introduce the surprises of the story world and show the clash between your unprepared character and this challenging new world. My experience is with comedy, and this is a great use of the pages for a fish out of water comedy.

It is story. You set up the character and the problem in Act I. In the beginning of Act II, the character is trying to solve the Act I problem but is not yet fully engaged or even close to being prepared. The fun and games are about the character experiencing his inability to solve the problem and realizing how much trouble he's in.

But if you want to see your character always moving forward toward some task, you can combine Synder's beats with a sequence structure so that this adjustment period takes place withing the context of working toward a mini-goal. That's what I now do.

[Laura Reyna]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

Like any other formula, you can't follow Snyder's exactly. He has some good ideas, but there are some drawbacks as well.

After you've watched a bunch of movies, read & studied scripts, and then tried your hand at writing a movie, you realize there is no set formula. For every theory & formula out there, you can come up with movies that don't adhere exactly to that formula.

But unless you have a little bit of experience (not a newbie), the tendency is to think that Snyder has some magic formula, or that this is really how all movies are, & should be, written. That's simply not the case. I know of no successful movie that was written using Snyder's method exactly.

But HW movies do follow a broad storytelling pattern. And Snyder's method follows the same pattern as HW movies.

This thread has brought up a big problem I see with Snyder's method, and with a lot of other methods & advice given out by gurus of all stripes.

Snyder's method is based on "beats" or moments that occur at certain intervals within the story/script. But there are big gaps btwn these events.

You run into the same problem using the 3 Act template as your main guide: there are still big gaps in the story that need to be filled with something.

So what happens in btwn these beats or plot points???

The gurus don't usually have a good answer for this question.

Below, Joan (as usual) has some great advice. Take Snyder's beats (or the standard HW story beats, same thing) and overlay them with the SEQUENCE METHOD.

Using sequnces (lasting 10 minutes or so...) along with the basic story beats will help insure there is something happening at reg intervals.

But if you want to see your character always moving forward toward some task, you can combine Synder's beats with a sequence structure so that this adjustment period takes place withing the context of working toward a mini-goal. That's what I now do.

[R.D. Wright]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

...But for someone that has the audacity to say that the break into act 2 has to happen at EXACTLY page 25, how can he possibly say with a straight face that 25 pages of a screenplay should be dedicated solely to trailer scenes?

Does Snyder say that breaks need to happen EXACTLY on certain pages? I wouldn't know, since I haven't read his book.

My understanding is that key plot points occur at a certain percentage of the story; ie. the one-act turn is somewhere around 25% into it. Page numbers are only given based on a 120-page script. I guess 120 would be the average if you account for every script ever written, but I don't think it's the model for today. How often do you actually see a two-hour movie these days?

Although I haven't read Snyder's book, I did use his beat sheet . I found it useful for sorting my scenes, until I got to a point where the thing was such a mess I couldn't keep up with it. I ended up with a bulletin board divided into fifteen "chapters." This is where I organized all the notes and cards that comprised the scenes, dialogue, research, and whatever would go into the script. When I got to a certain point, I would take down the notes for that chapter, put them in order, and start writing.

However you want to slice it up, I think that's pretty much what all these guys are teaching. Put all your stuff in order and give yourself markers within the allotted time, so you know when you've gone too far, or not far enough.

[ScriptShadow]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

Joan and stvnlra - great posts.

R.D. - he says that the first thing he does when he gets a script is open to page 25 to see if the act 2 break is there. if it isn't, he knows the writer doesn't know what he/she is doing.

I was always skeptical of Save the Cat! because I felt like he was picking movie examples that adhered strictly to his formula. But I did like a lot of what he said. Save the Cat Goes To The Movies intrigued me since it gave fifty examples of movies that followed his formula exactly. So I went out and bought a copy. I'm only through about 5 movies, but man does he do some major stretching to make these movies fit. His analysis of Fatal Attraction is almost laughable. For example, he says the B-Story is the relationship between Michael Douglas and Glenn Close. Errrrr...then what's the A-Story??? Quite disappointed in that sense.

I do think Snyder has some good things to say but he muddles his way through important parts of the process.

And Todd, I agree. Eurotrip begins with the inciting incident (the main character gets dumped). What then?

[R.D. Wright]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

R.D. - he says that the first thing he does when he gets a script is open to page 25 to see if the act 2 break is there. if it isn't, he knows the writer doesn't know what he/she is doing.

Well, if that's what he said, then I suppose every script needs to be 100 pages long. We all know this isn't true, so exactly how does this work? I'm also curious as to how he knows if the scene on page 25 is indeed the act 2 break, since he doesn't know what preceded it. No, I think this is an empty claim. What he probably looks for is just something there to make him keep reading.

[JonnyAtlas]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

for movies like Shoot em Up where it dives right into the inciting incident within 30 seconds, wouldn't that sort of force everything "down" or outside the 25-30 page rule?

if someone else were writing that very same story, it still would have worked if they gave us a 10 page intro of the characters, a bit more on the mother/baby etc...

I guess after awhile of following the rules we discover there really are none

Actually, the inciting incident happens 6 minutes in. There would have been no movie (or a totally different one) if after delivering the baby during the gunfight, he successfully helped mother and child get away. The inciting incident is the mother getting shot in the head, which forces Smith to take and protect the baby (the "innocent"). Of course, your point still stands. An inciting incident on page 6 is still very early by formula standards.

[ScriptShadow]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

This is what he says: "Page 25 is the place where I always go to first in a screenplay someone has handed me to see "what happens on 25". I want to know 1) if anything happens and 2) if this screenwriter knows that something *should* happen. And I mean something big. Because that's what's supposed to happen...on 25."

Now he waffles a little bit and says this is on a 110 page screenplay. But he literally says. The break into two "happens on page 25. I have been in many arguments. Why not 28? What's wrong with 30? Don't. Please."

[R.D. Wright]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

This is what he says: "Page 25 is the place where I always go to first in a screenplay someone has handed me to see "what happens on 25". I want to know 1) if anything happens and 2) if this screenwriter knows that something *should* happen. And I mean something big. Because that's what's supposed to happen...on 25."

This is what I was looking for -- an exact quote. And it doesn't sound like he's being overly specific: He turns to certain page to look for something that happens, or an indication that something will happen (hopefully something big).

...But he literally says. The break into two "happens on page 25. I have been in many arguments. Why not 28? What's wrong with 30? Don't. Please."

Are you quoting Snyder or yourself here? Anyway, I appreciate the quote, since I probably won't be reading the book anytime soon.

[ScriptShadow]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

No, that was his quote. And I guess he does give himself a little wiggle room.

But my point, I believe, is still relevant. The guy gets religiously caught up in the exactness of where act 2 should break down to the very page, yet is completely vague about what should happen in an entire 25 page chunk. That's what I don't like.

[sc111]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

This is what he says: "Page 25 is the place where I always go to first in a screenplay someone has handed me to see "what happens on 25". I want to know 1) if anything happens and 2) if this screenwriter knows that something *should* happen. And I mean something big. Because that's what's supposed to happen...on 25."

Now he waffles a little bit and says this is on a 110 page screenplay. But he literally says. The break into two "happens on page 25. I have been in many arguments. Why not 28? What's wrong with 30? Don't. Please."

What an odd thing for him to be adamant about. Some genres break into Act two at 15-20 minutes -- far less than 25 pages.

[RichMike]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

go hear him speak. OR, read the book first.

he says in person that there are no absolutes. and so what? if Blake believes it is MUST happen on page 5, 12, 25, or 55, then so what?

last time i checked he wasn't buying scripts and he's not a studio head. and he is definitely NOT saying that the reader @ the prodco or studio is going to pass on the script if it's not.

again, if it gives people a more common language to talk about movies, beats, and ideas, then great. if it helps you with structure, great. if it makes you pay much more attention to your logline before spending 6 months on a bad idea, then great. for some people, it MAY be the last book on screenwriting they'll ever need. for others, not.

again, i would go hear him speak, read his blogs, and take away the VERY positive energy, passion for story, and a decent structure. and if you don't like, walk away.

[R.D. Wright]

Re: Fun and Games - More like Crap and Stupid

... "happens on page 25. I have been in many arguments. Why not 28? What's wrong with 30? Don't. Please."

No kidding? He really said that? Sounds like he gets this argument a lot.

If you go to the seminars, like at the Expo and such, you find that a lot of instructors are this rigid in their methods. I think there's a good reason, which is that this is what they are: instructors. If you take classes on a subject, virtually any teacher will insist on "this way and this way only." They are teaching you a proven way to do it, and they want you to stay focussed on doing it that way.

Once we have had that stuff drilled into us (and even before), we realize that things aren't nearly as rigid as all that. We've already learned this from professional writers that we talk to on these boards, so I think the training wheels can come off.