How many peer reviews...

[Rathmon]

Should a script get before it goes out to the pros?

I've had two solid peer reviews that tell me my script is ready. Is that enough or should I seek out a couple more before hitting the query button?

[Telly]

Re: How many peer reviews...

Should a script get before it goes out to the pros?

I've had two solid peer reviews that tell me my script is ready. Is that enough or should I seek out a couple more before hitting the query button?

Did those two peers have any notes for you at all? If they did, how do you feel about the changes you made after those notes? Was this your first draft? If it was your first draft, you sent it to peers and neither had notes, you are not ready. You would be the first screenwriter in history to nail a first draft that's ready for queries. Some will claim they wrote their first draft and immediately sold it, but that don't make it a good script (and I still don't believe them). The rewriting process is more important than the initial draft. Please clarify.

[Geoff Alexander]

Re: How many peer reviews...

Should a script get before it goes out to the pros?

I've had two solid peer reviews that tell me my script is ready. Is that enough or should I seek out a couple more before hitting the query button?

Are they in the business in a substantive way?

[TheKeenGuy]

Re: How many peer reviews...

I've had two solid peer reviews that tell me my script is ready. Is that enough or should I seek out a couple more before hitting the query button?

If you had developed any other product that you were going to try to sell for thousands of dollars, would you only have two people test it?

It's definitely a good indication to get two out of two good reviews to start with, but that's too small a sample size to be conclusive. I would aim for at least half a dozen, ideally more.

[Rathmon]

Re: How many peer reviews...

Did those two peers have any notes for you at all? If they did, how do you feel about the changes you made after those notes? Was this your first draft? If it was your first draft, you sent it to peers and neither had notes, you are not ready. You would be the first screenwriter in history to nail a first draft that's ready for queries. Some will claim they wrote their first draft and immediately sold it, but that don't make it a good script (and I still don't believe them). The rewriting process is more important than the initial draft. Please clarify.

This is the 3rd draft, which came after 1 peer review and a DD-based pro reader to get some notes. Both of which were extremely helpful and nailed down the glaring weaknesses.

For this draft, the first peer review had some notes on typos and 'cut to' stuff... now fixed. Both had the same note on wanting to see something play out, but I intentionally left it out for sequel/prequel purposes. I would ruin a whole other cool story if I were to put the scene into this script. (Paint myself into a corner, so to speak)

Other than that... both said it was entertaining and enjoyable, with commercial potential. (Even the pro reader thought it had good commercial potential if the flaws were fixed).

Personally, I know that the script has come a long way (understatement) since the first draft. I never doubted the story, and now I don't doubt the script. But, I'd rather be safe than sorry!

[Rathmon]

Re: How many peer reviews...

Are they in the business in a substantive way?

Other than being struggling writers themselves? Not that I know of.

But, I've proven with my opinions that sometimes other writers are the harshest judge.

I'd love to find someone that fits that bill, but I won't pay for coverage again. So I have to rely on the DD'ers that I haven't p*ssed off.

[Geoff Alexander]

Re: How many peer reviews...

Other than being struggling writers themselves? Not that I know of.

But, I've proven with my opinions that sometimes other writers are the harshest judge.

I'd love to find someone that fits that bill, but I won't pay for coverage again. So I have to rely on the DD'ers that I haven't p*ssed off.

If they aren't professionals, ideally people with some development experience, then I wouldn't trust their opinions.

What is the genre?

[Rathmon]

Re: How many peer reviews...

If they aren't professionals, ideally people with some development experience, then I wouldn't trust their opinions.

What is the genre?

Ahh, but if I ask a veterinarian and Joe Schmo to point out a duck...

I know what you mean, structure and other things experienced people can pick up.

The genre is Supernatural Thriller.

[Telly]

Re: How many peer reviews...

If they aren't professionals, ideally people with some development experience, then I wouldn't trust their opinions.

I don't agree with this at all. Ideally you want to have a mix of professionals, friends and relatives read your work. It's amazing to see how different an untrained eye reads a script over a trained one. Sometimes I've found the general audience reader has stronger notes. As the cliche goes, take what what works, trash the rest.

Here's what I gather from your response to my questions. This is your third draft, you've had several folks read it, give you notes and now you think you're ready but started this thread to be sure. If this is the case, I would suggest sending out a handful of queries, not a "mass amount" as you stated in your OP.

Take your time. Don't shoot for the bigs yet, but query maybe three mid level managers and maybe three mid level agents. This way you get to test your query letter/logline too. During this time, take a break from your script, 2-3 weeks or so. Then you'll have fresh eyes on your 3rd draft in a few weeks. This will answer your original question, do I need more eyes on this? If something is still bothering you about the script, you should catch it here. Hopefully you'll have a couple requests too. If not, rewrite that query letter and send out a couple more. if you do have requests, send out the script and start over again.

So many folks think it's a sprint and blow their load on mass queries, which in my opinion hurts your chances. Send out a handful of queries at a time, take a break, review the script again, make minor adjustments, send out a few more queries, take a break, check for responses, etc. This way, you tack on a couple months of slowly rewriting while tapping a few agents/managers with scripts. It's not an all-or-nothing process, if you take it slow, you'll thank yourself for it. Not to mention during this process you can hand it off to more peers, professionals, friends and family. Oh, and I'm one that believes there is such thing as too much re-writing. There's something to be said for the original words to paper that is inspiring. We sometimes over think that original gut feeling that creates risks in our work and remove it when scared. Be careful with too many cooks in the kitchen.

Good luck

[Geoff Alexander]

Re: How many peer reviews...

>>I don't agree with this at all. Ideally you want to have a mix of professionals, friends and relatives read your work. It's amazing to see how different an untrained eye reads a script over a trained one. Sometimes I've found the general audience reader has stronger notes. As the cliche goes, take what what works, trash the rest.<<

I think that it can be useful to get opinions from people that aren't in the business, but that it is far more dangerous. Other writers...okay, if they have been around long enough and had enough real experience to give you real notes.

Here's the crux of my point, which I didn't adequately explain in the last post. People with real experience in this stuff, i.e., execs and writers who are actually engaged in this process of acquiring and developing material are far more likely to tell you things that may be painful to you, to give you the unvarnished truth. I wouldn't trust others to do that, they will, out of concern and politeness often sugarcoat or seek to cushion the blow...even if they do understand what makes a "movie" and that this, not writing on a page is what you should be concerned with.

Where I personally would turn to civilians is in the conceptual phase, when you're vetting the idea. It, IMO, can be a very valuable thing to talk to ten people and say, hey, listen to this and tell me if you think it would be a cool movie, it's...and then pitch them the logline. If no one thinks it's a movie then you're in trouble. If most people do, then you might have something. But going to friends and family for script notes? Very dangerous, IMO.

[Rathmon]

Re: How many peer reviews...

Have these peer reviewers read a lot of scripts themselves? That's really important because the screenplay is a pretty unique art form.

If they're experienced script readers and they're being honest and objective about giving your script a "go for launch" then that's a good indication.

But what's even more important imo is how honest and objective are you--the writer--capable of being about your script?

How good/ready do you think the script is? I've always argued that a new writer's script is ready to compete when it rises to the level of what you see in the average first-timer's spec sale scripts. That's about as close to an objectively verifiable standard as your gonna get.

Have you read enough first-timer specs to get an idea of what that level of accomplishment looks like? Does your script honestly and objectively hold up against that level of competition?

That's the approach we took in gauging market-readiness for our first scripts. At that time, we didn't even have peer reviewers who were experienced with screenplays. We used friends and family members, after giving them briefings on screenplay format etc.

But what we did have was a small collection of first-timer spec sale scripts to study. (as well as scripts written by more established pros, of course...)

Once our scripts seemed honestly competitive with the first-timer stuff we'd read and studied, then we started querying.

And the results were pretty good. We weren't laughed out of the room and were actually given some decent consideration from industry people: the first script attracted a couple managers and even a B-list actor; the second one got us an agent and eventually sold.

To me, if you make a close study of sold specs, especially first-timer specs, and then honestly and objectively hold your script up that kind of material in a side-by-side analysis, you can gauge your script's market-readiness largely for yourself.

Doesn't mean your script will sell or garner reps necessarily, but it should prevent you from sending out anything that's an amateurish embarrassment.

The key, of course, is the ability to be objective about your work. But, for whatever reason, this seems to be something a lot of new writers are unable to do...

(ETA: the drafts we sent out were somewhere around draft #6-7...)

I've read a 'few' (10+) scripts between my drafts, mostly from the Black List.... 'Galahad', 'Going the Distance', the Beaver Puppet one, etc... and I feel that mine does compare favorably to most of these.

I try to be as objective as possible with my own stuff. I've certainly found that when I think I've written my best, it isn't. So when I tear down what's my 'best' and rebuild it, then I get what truly is the best I can do.

In the genre that it is, Supernatural Thriller/Horror, it compares even more favorably- from cool antag to likable protags, engaging story, etc..., there's no reason it can't beat the likes of F13 remakes and all.

Not to sound snobby, but I want to shoot for the moon with A-list management, A-list talent, etc.... I mean, I could see a guy like Sam Raimi directing something like this. Go big or go home, right?

[Telly]

Re: How many peer reviews...

But going to friends and family for script notes? Very dangerous, IMO.

Again, as I mentioned, it's about striking a balance of professionals, friends and family. My wife has better notes than most pros I've worked with, you just never know who is going to have that insight into a script that will have an impact on it's marketability or direction you are after. There is nothing dangerous about reading someone's notes, regardless of their experience with scripts. Unless you are completely insecure about your ability to weed through the notes that do not work. If you are not strong enough to disregard bad notes, I question your ability in the first place.

[Telly]

Re: How many peer reviews...

Not to sound snobby, but I want to shoot for the moon with A-list management, A-list talent, etc.... I mean, I could see a guy like Sam Raimi directing something like this. Go big or go home, right?

Though I can appreciate your enthusiasm I think this could be counter-productive. You can always say no to mid-level agents, managers and producers that want to sign you or option/buy the script. Start there first, you have nothing to lose. We all think we have the next Casablanca but it's the smart writers who understand the post-script work that make the deal.

In your original post you question if it's even ready, now you're talking like you have a blockbuster on your hands! Slow down man, start small, work your way up, it's the smartest way to go. If you're that convinced about your work, all the mid levels will be dying to buy it and will be the perfect barometer to gauge the next step. That is when you send it off to Raimi knowing everyone wants this script!

Just food for thought, there's several ways to skin a cat.

[sc111]

Re: How many peer reviews...

I think Telly is right. I let friends and family give me feedback too but usually as "the heart/emotion test." To see if my protags are someone they'd root for etc. (I also try to get "civilians" in my target market to read it.)

I've received notes from reps, execs. They're not always stellar notes. They make mistakes too. Some suggest changes that can weaken a script.

My advice to Rath is to read 10 scripts in the genre of his script. Comparing one's thriller/horror script to a comedy or rom-com, in my opinion, is not that helpful.
You need to see where the story beats are, genre-wise.

And please don't turn down Boski for a free read. That's a generous offer.

[Rathmon]

Re: How many peer reviews...

Telly- I wasn't necessarily questioning whether I thought it was ready, but how many other opinions should I get before I 'believe' it. I'm the type of person that knows they're good, but can never quite believe they're great. Character flaw, but there's worse ones to have. A blockbuster? Not a $250 mil flick, but I daresay it could reach $100 mil (if cast and directed well)- target audience is 18-30.

I did take Boski up on his offer... jumped on it, in fact. I look forward to his critique!

Unfortunately, in my genre, I can't find 3 scripts worth reading, let alone 10. It's one of the reasons I started writing in the first place... good horror is dead.