Protag/Antag question

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Re: human stories

    I think of Red's type of character as the Ally which is the opposite of the Nemesis. In the same way the Nemesis may be a prominent hindrance to the protagonist but is not the true antagonist, the Ally may be a prominent character who also has the same goals as the protagonist but the ally is not the true protagonist.

    I think Red is not only the Ally, he is like Rose in Titanic or the girl in T2 or even the Marshall in The Fugitive and experiences an arc which is not only their own arc but is also the protagonist's arc by Proxy.

    In a lot of ways Andy is no different from Forest Gump, or the Man with No Name in Clint's spaghetti westerns or Kimble or Jack who are essentially traveling angels or what Vogler calls a "Catalyst Hero" who unlike the typical hero that is changed by the story, the Catalyst Hero does not change but causes those he encounters to be changed and how he changes them is a reflection of the values the Catalyst Hero embodies.

    In the case of Red, it is Andy's values of not giving up on life and refusing to allow the prison to define who he is that is passes on to red and all the cons who are changed in varying degrees because of their contact with Andy.

    Red is most definitely telling Andy's story, and Andy is most definitely the protagonist of that story.

    But Red is certainly an important part of that story. He is the ally character who helps Andy and is changed by Andy into arcing toward the same goal as Andy, but everything Red does and how he grows is all because of Andy's actions.

    Andy is the "catalyst" protagonist.

    Red is the ally.


    That's my take on it.

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: human stories

      Fairtrax. I'm not debating anymore because it's like arguing over the color blue. I say it's black and you say it's white. Fine. At some point someone has to let it go. How do you nicely disengage yourself from a debate without looking like you lost? The other thing that commonly happens in these threads is that it degenerates to arguments of semantics on the other posts we made. I hate that. I'm sure you and I both have better things to do.

      I don't know who you are or what your creds are, and I have no interest in making personal attacks on you. Nor do I care who Volger is. I'm fairly certain I can write a great screenplay without his help.

      One last note. I often get riled up when someone says "It's true because William Goldman says it is." Or Syd Field. Or McKee. Or Martell. Or whoever. What do you expect someone to say in response to that? "Oh my bad. I'm clearly wrong."? Is it a debate ender? Do I need to go out and buy this guy's book just so I can fill in the blanks of your argument? Is this Volger's argument or is it your argument? Will you bring Volger online so I can argue with him instead?

      When you debate something, debate it because you believe in it. Not because someone in a book told you it was so.

      Now, I'll say it again: Keep writing. And I'll keep writing too. How's that?

      (for the record, I don't believe I've ever disagreed with any advice Bill has given)

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: human stories

        Part of debating is bringing in factual information and citing documents.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: human stories

          protantagonists.... i am you & you are me .... as long as Conflict is paramount... Harmony is for the afterlife:\

          Comment


          • #80
            .

            I think parmount sold the rights for conflict to sony.

            Comment


            • #81
              .

              I think paramount sold the rights for conflict to sony.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: .

                this is like watching a william f. buckley roundtable discussion a half hour after the water bottles were surreptitiously filled with tequila.

                please, do carry on.

                (re: my opinion on shawshank redemption -- red is no more the protagonist of that story than i am the protagonist if i sit down in front of the fire with you and tell you the story about my childhood buddy who defeated a crocodile, saving his own life and that of little peggy pigtails. of course i, as the narrator, have learned, been affected. one doesn't tell a story unless it has become memorable through its impact. doesn't make me the protag. freeman in shawshank is the tried and true "wise old man" device.)

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: .

                  (re: my opinion on shawshank redemption -- red is no more the protagonist of that story than i am the protagonist if i sit down in front of the fire with you and tell you the story about my childhood buddy who defeated a crocodile, saving his own life and that of little peggy pigtails. of course i, as the narrator, have learned, been affected. one doesn't tell a story unless it has become memorable through its impact. doesn't make me the protag. freeman in shawshank is the tried and true "wise old man" device.)
                  Well put.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: .

                    david,

                    obviously we need to fistfight to settle this. and don't try any of your kung fu crap. i don't want to have to bring the neighborhood to your ass.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: .

                      Teaching or learning are not accurate ways to identify the protagonist.

                      The protagonist is defined by the character's relationship to the story and the actions taken by the character to advance and resolve it.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: .

                        I think the point in a thread where Uhuru, of all people, starts waxing intellectual about the nuance of dramatic theory is a sure sign that the thread reached inane absurdity 10 posts earlier.

                        This thread is simply an exercise in preaching to choirs who've never been to church.

                        It's time to move on to something important.

                        Like how many brads go in an Act break.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: .

                          I'm sorry, I must have watched a different movie. I saw a film about a hardened career criminal, who with the help of an amazing foil who taught him to escape prison in his mind long before he actually escaped prison for real, comes to the crux of his life: get busy living, or get busy dying. This is Red's journey we're watching. This is Red's life we're saving. Andy doesn't change in this movie. He doesn't learn anything. He teaches. He teaches the prisoners to respect themselves and live with dignity. He teaches Red about hope. He teaches the warden about retribution.

                          This is Red's movie. Andy's the, if you'll pardon the pun, "Red Herring"

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: .

                            Haskins, I think a good independent-whomping is what just what ole Doc Anarchy's prescribed for these babies I like to call "The Hamhocks of Righteous Justice."

                            Noah... how do you manage to to say that without a big ass Pot screaming BLACK! BLACK! BLACK! in your face?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: .

                              Has the earth's poles shifted?

                              DC/APW saw the film the same way I did.

                              Whoa.

                              :eek

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: .

                                "The Hamhocks of Righteous Justice."
                                :lol

                                jesus christ, that's funny!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X