Fatal Flaw?

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  • TwoBrad Bradley
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Random stuff:

    - Tolstoy said, The best stories don't come from 'good vs bad' but from 'good vs good'.

    - That's why Laszlo works so well as Rick's antagonist.

    - Casablanca is a love story. Most stories are.

    - "Main Character" is not meant to be a "standalone label". The audience experiences the story though the "eyes" of the MC. The Main Character is the MC and also another character type. The MC can also be the protagonist, antagonist, confidant character, etc.

    (Interesting thread, BTW)

    Leave a comment:


  • billmarq
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Wasn't the play originally titled, Everyone Comes to Laszlo's?

    No, wait ...

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffLowell
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Laszlo... Laszlo... Laszlo... Laszlo...

    Leave a comment:


  • asjah8
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    i really don't get what's so complicated about this. million dollar baby is frankie's story (eastwood), maggie is the antagonist, and we learn of frankie's journey through eddie's perspective (freeman); because, he's a character that's able to analyze both the protag and the antag from both a personal and non-biased perspective (ie., directing through pov). i think jeff is right, this basic foundational concept has just been waaay over-analyzed.

    Leave a comment:


  • joe9alt
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
    I haven't entered into this coversation because I ran out of mushrooms and can't find my last two panes of blotter.

    - Bill
    I am worried about Lowell.

    He may end up rocking in the corner of some asylum thinking he's an orange for the rest of his life after this one.

    Leave a comment:


  • NikeeGoddess
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
    The protagonist is the main character.
    not always. see my examples a couple of pages back.
    shawshank redemption
    road to perdition
    million dollar baby
    to kill a mockingbird
    training day

    all of these (and i'm sure there are many others) where there's a main character in a story told by the protagonist through voice over.

    Leave a comment:


  • wcmartell
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    I haven't entered into this coversation because I ran out of mushrooms and can't find my last two panes of blotter.

    - Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • Biohazard
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    The protagonist is the main character.

    Casablanca - Rick's story
    Star Wars - Luke's story
    The Terminator - Sarah's story
    The Godfather - Michael's story

    Leave a comment:


  • gravitas
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    I take it all back about Dramatica. I found a really easy to use chart that made it all make sense.

    http://storymind.com/free-downloads/ddomain.pdf
    Holy fvck!

    Leave a comment:


  • Richmond Weems
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    No, no, no...we're halfway there.

    HH

    Leave a comment:


  • mikeb
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Is this thread serious? Does this actually exist in the Internet somewhere? Does a guy who TEACHES film really want to argue the point that EFFING LAZLO is the PROTAGONIST of CASABLANCA?

    This entire thread should be nuked, people should be banned, mothers should hide their children, because if people from the Internets find this thread, no one will take Done Deal Pro seriously ever again and the world as we know it will end.

    What a ridiculous notion. I've heard some genuinely subjective arguments toward film structure, but never one as off the wall as that. Good lord...

    Leave a comment:


  • Steven Jenkins
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    LOL

    here comes another one.

    Rick is Lazlo's antagonist (he refuses to give him the letters) Not Strasse. Which makes Lazlo the protagonist of the fight against fascism angle.

    Ilsa is Rick's antagonist, as she stands in the way of his emotional healing, which makes Rick the protagonist of the love story.

    Strasse doesn't become the antagonist until he tries to stop the airplane from leaving (before this he's merely a nuisance - he doesn't even arrest Lazlo, or Rick). Strasse only becomes the single antagonist after Lazlo, Rick and Ilsa patch-up their differences.

    Rick then becomse a double hero by overcoming both Ilsa and then Strasse. So is it that Rick only becomes the protag of both stories AFTER he overcomes his own battle - even more heroic than the exemplory (and european) Lazlo?

    Do these two stories echo the conflicts of 1940's USA - refusing to get involved in the war because of bad memories from the ww1, then overcoming that to pick up the fight against fascism. (I'm assuming the stageplay was written before the US did commit).
    Last edited by Steven Jenkins; 03-30-2010, 05:49 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffLowell
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    A love story is not an emotional, internal or "heart" story. Rick is pursuing a tangible thing: a person. Ilsa.

    Yes, there are multiple stories going on, but Rick and Ilsa's story is what drives the entire plot of the movie. If Rick didn't love Ilsa, he would just hand over the letters and be clean of the entire mess. He would have his purported goal - neutrality - back. There is only a movie because he doesn't want to see Ilsa leave with Laszlo.

    But he doesn't hand over the letters. He's caught in a love triangle, complicated by the fact that he's sympathetic to Laszlo's mission - and so is the woman he loves. It's a genius love triangle, but that's what the movie is.

    I was afraid to say this and open up another front in the war, but I think dmizzo is right - Laszlo is the antagonist. He is what stands in the way of Rick and what he wants.

    Leave a comment:


  • jonpiper
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Originally posted by JimHull View Post
    I would argue that Casablanca is both a love story between Rick and Ilsa AND a story about a resistance leader trying to escape the Nazis. The former is the heart of the story, the latter is the head of the story (logical argument). The both work in concert to create meaning. This is why it stands the test of time. Many stories, especially nowadays, leave out the heart of the story and concentrate solely on the logical side of things.

    Your example of Lazlo as protagonist is actually an example of him as Main Character. I certainly don't think he's the Main Character of the story.
    If Casablanca is two stories, then why not argue that Rick is the protagonist of the love story and Laszlo (sorry about the previous misspelling ) is the protag of the resistance story?

    Leave a comment:


  • JimHull
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    I would argue that Casablanca is both a love story between Rick and Ilsa AND a story about a resistance leader trying to escape the Nazis. The former is the heart of the story, the latter is the head of the story (logical argument). The both work in concert to create meaning. This is why it stands the test of time. Many stories, especially nowadays, leave out the heart of the story and concentrate solely on the logical side of things.

    Your example of Lazlo as protagonist is actually an example of him as Main Character. I certainly don't think he's the Main Character of the story.

    Leave a comment:

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