Fatal Flaw?

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  • Steven Jenkins
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    well, according to the theory the protag is the one who is trying to achieve the main goal in the plot, and the Antag is the one trying to stop him.

    The theory uses the example of a battle. two sides meeting on a battlefield. The protag is the general trying to occupy the territory, and the antag is the general trying to stop him. The main character is a simple soldier in the middle of the battle, and it's his eyes we use to experience the heat the battle.

    so using this example, Sauron is the one trying to dominate middle earth, Gandalf is the one manauvering and instigating the forces against him, and Frodo is the poor soldier in the middle of the battlefield.

    At least that's how I understand the theory to be working.

    It just never occured to me that not everybody would buy into this theory

    They also say that a film like Die-Hard is something different altogether. The main character is also the protagonist here, as the general is also the soldier in the field.

    or is he the 'Antagonist' - as he's trying to 'stop' the bad-guys...?
    Last edited by Steven Jenkins; 03-28-2010, 11:35 AM.

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  • dmizzo
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    I like to make them all the same character. Little trick I learned from Mr. Charlie Kaufman.

    Seriously, I've heard this protagonist and main character being different people thing before, and I've never understood it. The classic example is Atticus as the protagonist and Scout as the main character. But I don't see how looking at it like that helps write the thing.

    Just because we see the story from Scout's perspective doesn't mean the drama isn't driven by Atticus and his actions. Feels like arbitrary labeling, but maybe there's another way to look at it.

    However, there is no world in which Gandalf = antagonist makes even a lick of sense. That's gibberish.

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  • Steven Jenkins
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Well, I don't want to be a know-it-all here. I'm just a rookie learning the ropes. There's all kinds of theorists out there publishing stuff on story-crafting, and one of them just caught my imagination.

    I guess it's just a mix-up of terms, probably from my having recently read the theory behind the "Dramatica" program, which they agree is a little different to established thinking.

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  • joe9alt
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Please don't let this become the dumbest thread ever....a thread that I will undoubtedly devote countless hours to when I should really be writing.

    Please...

    Luke Skywalker?

    Frodo?

    Anybody?

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  • LIMAMA
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Originally posted by joe9alt View Post
    Oh wow...this is serious?

    And here I thought Steven was just confusing the terms antagonist and protagonist.
    Please stop using these big words, my tiny little head is about to explode.

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  • joe9alt
    replied
    leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.

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  • JeffLowell
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Originally posted by Steven Jenkins View Post
    Not according to the experts.
    I can think of quite a few movies with seperate protags and MCs.

    To Kill a mockingbird is the text-book example.
    Not sure who you think is who, but I don't see a split.

    Lord of the Rings (Gandalf the Antag vs Sauron the Protag "Sauron desperately wants the ring, but he must not get it", Frodo is the MC).
    Gandalf is neither the antagonist, the protoganist, or the main character. He's an advisor to the protagonist, Frodo. Sauron is the antagonist. Sauron is looking for the ring through his minions, and directly through his eye. Frodo defeats him by destroying the ring and he's won.

    Star wars (Emperor=protag, Rebellion=Antag "The more you tighten your grip, there more planets will slip through your fingers", luke is the MC)
    Luke Skywalker is the protagonist. Darth Vader is the antagonist.

    The protagonist and the main character are the same person in every film or novel I can think of. You're supposed to sympathize with the protagonist. Just because the antagonist has a goal doesn't make him the protagonist.

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  • Steven Jenkins
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    Having your main character and protagonist be different people might qualify.
    Not according to the experts.
    I can think of quite a few movies with seperate protags and MCs.

    To Kill a mockingbird is the text-book example.
    Lord of the Rings (Gandalf the Antag vs Sauron the Protag "Sauron desperately wants the ring, but he must not get it", Frodo is the MC).
    Star wars (Emperor=protag, Rebellion=Antag "The more you tighten your grip, there more planets will slip through your fingers", luke is the MC)

    There's loads of examples

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  • asjah8
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Originally posted by Steven Jenkins View Post
    My plot is about getting a mem-stick with vitally important data on it to a particular person & place.

    My flaw is that this data could feasibly be uploaded to the person via the internet, or the mem-stick posted in the mail, which kinda undermines my hero's hazardous trek across the country.

    why can't you just wrap up the 'vitally important data' with a trojan virus (like dna)? the recipient has the code to unwrap it, and now the cross-country trekker has a reason to hand it over in person.

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  • joe9alt
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Call off your minions, Lowell.

    That was outta line (or as my three year old would say...) you big fat meany!

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffLowell
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    There has to be a rookie-type flaw in this idea somewhere, I just know it.
    Having your main character and protagonist be different people might qualify.

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  • Steven Jenkins
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Thanks for the help guys I'm getting a bit closer to a good solution now, I think...?

    The flash-drive is 'self-destructive', but my Main Character is only told that by the Protagonist who gives him the mission to deliver it somewhere, and there's extreme reasons at the end of the story to doubt Protag's honesty and motives.

    Basically I pit the MC against the Protagonist (who's now revealed to actually be the Protagonist of an evil plot) at the end of the film, if that makes any sense? Most of the movie is a smoke-screen, and MC spots the truth and foils the plan in the last few minutes of the film. How - I don't know yet

    There has to be a rookie-type flaw in this idea somewhere, I just know it.

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  • Mac H.
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    To answer the original question - don't explain it to the viewer.

    SHOW it to them.

    Just have someone try to send the data the sensible way first.
    And then we see him get killed.

    Our hero has the memory stick of what the guy tried to send, so it's up to him now.

    And he's not going to make the same mistake we just saw someone get killed making.

    It would also beef up the stakes by making him more of an 'everyday Joe'. He doesn't really understand the technicalities of what is on the stick or why he's being hunted.

    And if his own personal stuff was on the stick that the bad guys (erroneously) recovered then now he and his family are at risk.

    I vote for 'Let someone try the obvious way and get killed'.

    Good luck,

    Mac

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  • Mac H.
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Originally posted by Centos View Post
    That said, you could go the route of "District 9" -- just ignore the questions about how alien "power" juice can change the DNA of a human to that of an alien. I still liked the movie -- even with a plot hole so big you could fly a starship cruiser through it.
    To be fair, that isn't a 'plot hole' so much as something unexplained.

    It would make sense if the 'power juice' wasn't fuel (as is assumed) - but instead the black goo is just a glop of repair nanos.

    Once they are inside his system they will 'repair' the perceived damage and rebuild the expected alien body out of the raw material of his own.

    It explains why it was needed for the ship too - it isn't to fuel the ship (although people talk about it being 'fuel') it is more of a fuel additive.

    Heck - you know those old star cruisers - if you don't have the right fuel additive then the fusion injection points clog up before you're out of the solar system.

    That's what the hero alien has been doing all these years ... adapting the existing medical repair nanos so he can fix the ship. And given the way they are treated .. do you really expect him to be up front about the true capabilities of the technology?

    That is just one of dozens and dozens of explanations.

    So isn't a plot hole - it is something that is left to the viewer to explain.

    Mac

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  • reddery
    replied
    Re: Fatal Flaw?

    Originally posted by Steven Jenkins View Post
    My plot is about getting a mem-stick with vitally important data on it to a particular person & place.

    My flaw is that this data could feasibly be uploaded to the person via the internet, or the mem-stick posted in the mail, which kinda undermines my hero's hazardous trek across the country.
    lets stop there. 'posted in the mail?' and what's a mem-stick? you mean a flash drive.

    If something is of importance to the protagonist, then(inciting incident) they act.
    -just give him a reason to need to see the whole task through. like the data will help save his son from a fatal illness

    I'm covering this flaw by exposing that the mem-stick is hardware protected, so if it's inserted into a standard USB port the data gets fried
    hardware protected? hmm... like this device with will self destruct in 10 seconds... like Mission Impossible? That's like nineteen fiftys logic, where the flash drive would begin smoking.

    They have software encyiption programs. Download WinRAR and zip any file on your computer password protect it.... encryption software can render data irrecoverable

    and if it's posted in the mail it could get intercepted by the authrities who are hunting for the mem-stick.
    just give him a reason not to trust them. An action scequence.
    -A guy in Brown short tries to kill them, now there is no option but to take the device personally

    PS: no one would believe that a hobbit would bu tt fvck Gandolf

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