Dialogue with subtitles

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  • Dialogue with subtitles

    I'm a bit unsure with one thing...

    I have a story situated in Afghanistan, with agents and Russian mobsters and natives. It would make the whole thing more realistic to let all people speak their mother language and subtitle it (I know, there are movies doing this and I... don't particular like them...)

    In my case, it would mean many parts of the movie to be in Pashtun, Farsi, Russian.

    Guess no actor would want to learn the phrases....

    As for now, I let them all speak English.

    What's your experience with the topic? Thanks for sharing input.

    = VvC =


  • #2
    Re: Dialogue with subtitles

    most movie lovers prefer subtitles to dubbing

    but subtitles is not your job as a storyteller

    you tell the story as realistic and natural as you can and let the production people worry about subtitles

    much of this will be determined with casting decisions. although many americans have played foreigners not all of them are adept with other languages. sometimes they do accents. but there are actors who are native to these countries or languages as well.

    i've seen in some movies with subtitles where foreign characters are expected to or asked by a character to speak english and then they eliminate the need for subtitles. but it doesn't make sense for to afghanis to speak english when talking to each other.

    you should read a bunch of scripts that deal with multiple languages.

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    • #3
      Re: Dialogue with subtitles

      One of my current scripts has a mix of English and Bulgarian speakers. I just put a note in early on that the Bulgarians speak Bulgarian to each other, and English when English people are involved. At odd points where it's not clear, or the Bulgarians don't want to be understood by English speakers, I used '(in Bulgarian)' wrylies.

      Nikee's right. Don't sweat it, just make your story clear what you want on screen and let the director do the rest.

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      • #4
        Re: Dialogue with subtitles

        Originally posted by NikeeGoddess View Post
        most movie lovers prefer subtitles to dubbing

        but subtitles is not your job as a storyteller

        you tell the story as realistic and natural as you can and let the production people worry about subtitles
        No, this IS actually one of the things that IS the writer's job. It should be clear in the script when a character isn't speaking the language that's written on the page (unless you're actually writing in Russian and so forth). If the writer writes, "I'll be there tomorrow. Noon." but the character is saying it in Japanese, then that MUST be made clear in the script. And marking whether there is a subtitle or not may have a narrative significance. For example, if you want to hid something from the audience by having a character speak in a different language, then you would write:

        JIN-WOO
        (Chinese; no subtitles)
        Go to mark B. Kill him.

        If you want the character to hid it from the other character but NOT the audience, then you write:

        JIN-WOO
        (Chinese; subtitled)
        Go to Mark B. Kill him.

        This can't be unclear if there's a reason for it.

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        • #5
          Re: Dialogue with subtitles

          Something like half my professional work (including the script that got me my agent) has involved scenes where nobody speaks English, so I have some experience with this problem.

          One of the things you quickly realize is that Hollywood hates subtitles. Every draft I've ever done on one of those projects has faced a lot of pressure to reduce the amount of Spanish spoken. Furthermore, I've been told to disguise some of the foreign language, to make it less obvious.

          To that end, in a scene where everybody speaks Spanish, for example, I'll put "they speak in Spanish" in an action line, and parenthetical AT MOST the first line of dialog. I think I've actually pulled out all the parentheticals in that situation in my most recent draft. Actually, looking at my most recent draft, we even pulled the "they speak in spanish" out of the action lines.

          This was at the request of the producers. Foreign languages scare producers, financiers, agents, etc.


          Originally posted by Nexus9 View Post
          And marking whether there is a subtitle or not may have a narrative significance. For example, if you want to hid something from the audience by having a character speak in a different language, then you would write:

          JIN-WOO
          (Chinese; no subtitles)
          Go to mark B. Kill him.
          I disagree. In situations like this, I think there are two options:

          One, you actually figure out how to write the phrase in Chinese, and put that in.

          Two, you write something like "He barks orders in Chinese" in an action line.

          I've found that, as drafts have progressed, I've replaced written-out foreign language stuff with action lines almost everywhere, except for one or two word exclamations.

          If the audience doesn't get to know what he says unless they speak chinese, there's no reason to have the line in the script. Again - operate under the assumption that foreign language stuff scares people, so call as little attention to it as possible. Barking orders in Chinese reads faster than the above. It takes one line instead of three.

          JIN-WOO
          (Chinese; subtitled)
          Go to Mark B. Kill him.
          In situations where you want it subtitled, but don't want to ignore it (again, warning. You /will/ get notes to reduce the amount of subtitles in your script every. single. pass) I'd use an action line, give the FIRST chinese speaker a parenthetical to the effect of (in Chinese, subtitled), and then I'd italicize all the CHinese in the scene. I would NOT give parentheticals to subsequent occurences in a the same scene, just rely on the italics.

          I don't claim that this is the only way to do it, but it reads much more elegantly than parenthetically marking every line of dialog, and it will get you fewer notes to reduce the amount of foreign language spoken (even if you have the exact same number of lines spoken in the foreign language. I know, it doesn't make sense to me either).

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          • #6
            Re: Dialogue with subtitles

            Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post

            I disagree. In situations like this, I think there are two options:

            One, you actually figure out how to write the phrase in Chinese, and put that in.

            Two, you write something like "He barks orders in Chinese" in an action line.

            I've found that, as drafts have progressed, I've replaced written-out foreign language stuff with action lines almost everywhere, except for one or two word exclamations.

            If the audience doesn't get to know what he says unless they speak chinese, there's no reason to have the line in the script. Again - operate under the assumption that foreign language stuff scares people, so call as little attention to it as possible. Barking orders in Chinese reads faster than the above. It takes one line instead of three.
            I disagree. Not only could the hidden dialogue come up again where there is a reveal, the actor still needs something to say. And I'm the writer. So I feel it's my job to give him or her something to say. I've seen people frown over parentheticals, but I've equally seen people frown over reading a foreign language that they may or may not understand. And translating the foreign language on the page takes up even more room. And I also feel that I need to give the reader something to grab onto rather than designating it to a quick blurb in the action line. And I haven't gotten a ton of complaints from my readers to really make a change in how I handle it here. It works for me. And I don't really find either your or my method more elegant than the next. As long as its clear.


            In situations where you want it subtitled, but don't want to ignore it (again, warning. You /will/ get notes to reduce the amount of subtitles in your script every. single. pass)I'd use an action line, give the FIRST chinese speaker a parenthetical to the effect of (in Chinese, subtitled), and then I'd italicize all the CHinese in the scene. I would NOT give parentheticals to subsequent occurences in a the same scene, just rely on the italics. I don't claim that this is the only way to do it, but it reads much more elegantly than parenthetically marking every line of dialog, and it will get you fewer notes to reduce the amount of foreign language spoken (even if you have the exact same number of lines spoken in the foreign language. I know, it doesn't make sense to me either).
            If it's an entire scene, yes, I totally agree. If it's a scene that's in English and then a foreign character says one or two lines in his of her own language, then the parenthetical is a far better approach in my opinion.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Dialogue with subtitles

              Originally posted by Nexus9 View Post
              As long as its clear.
              It's not clear from the OP's original post if there would be any English spoken if the scenario was done realistically. Maybe the "agents" that he mentions, but it sounds like most of the movie would be Pashtun, Farsi, Russian. At least half, unless the "agents" represent the English speaking protagonists or something. But I'm jumping to conclusions.

              I have a lot of story ideas that take place in different countries. If I was a filmmaker with unlimited creative control, I would make these movies in the appropriate language, because I'm a stickler for verisimilitude. Like Mel Gibson. But if you're a screenwriter and you're writing a spec script, these aren't really your shots to call.

              I agree that clarity is of foremost importance. If there's any naturally occurring English in the dialogue, just write the script in English, and only worry about what languages the characters are speaking if it effects the plot. (ie. two characters talk about a third character in a different language that the third character doesn't understand, etc.) Depending on how much dialogue there is, either Nexus or Ronaldinho's formatting methods work. Just make sure it's clear and easy to understand.

              Whatever you do, do not write a script in English with nothing but foreign languages in the dialogue. If there's no spoken English in the movie and that's the way you want it, write it in the applicable languages and try to get it made in Russia or France or something.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Dialogue with subtitles

                Originally posted by Nexus9 View Post
                I disagree. Not only could the hidden dialogue come up again where there is a reveal, the actor still needs something to say. And I'm the writer. So I feel it's my job to give him or her something to say. I've seen people frown over parentheticals, but I've equally seen people frown over reading a foreign language that they may or may not understand. And translating the foreign language on the page takes up even more room. And I also feel that I need to give the reader something to grab onto rather than designating it to a quick blurb in the action line.
                Well, reasonably people may disagree.

                My feeling is I'll worry about actors when I'm going into production. Every time I end up writing something like "He barks orders in Chinese" I have an idea of what he's actually saying, so if the actor asks, I can tell him what to say (and I look smart for coming up with it on the spot). In the meantime, I'm worrying about actor's agents, development execs, producers, etc - the people who have consistently told me "less foreign language, please." Turning it into an action like is totally a cheat - it makes it read like there's less chinese when, onscreen, there's the exact same amount.

                But if it avoids a hiccup, then I'm all for it.

                Of course, writing it out in English doesn't solve the problem, because somebody still has to tell the actor how to say it in whatever language he's saying it in, if he doesn't already know. Although I agree with you that I really don't want people reading significant amounts of text they can't undertand - that's the worst reading experience.

                Which is, ultimately, why I gravitate towards using an action line. In addition to the one-line-is-better-than-three thing, I feel like somebody speaking in an incomprehensible language is an action more than it's a line of dialog.

                YMMV.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Dialogue with subtitles

                  Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                  Well, reasonably people may disagree.

                  My feeling is I'll worry about actors when I'm going into production. Every time I end up writing something like "He barks orders in Chinese" I have an idea of what he's actually saying, so if the actor asks, I can tell him what to say (and I look smart for coming up with it on the spot). In the meantime, I'm worrying about actor's agents, development execs, producers, etc - the people who have consistently told me "less foreign language, please." Turning it into an action like is totally a cheat - it makes it read like there's less chinese when, onscreen, there's the exact same amount.

                  But if it avoids a hiccup, then I'm all for it.

                  Of course, writing it out in English doesn't solve the problem, because somebody still has to tell the actor how to say it in whatever language he's saying it in, if he doesn't already know. Although I agree with you that I really don't want people reading significant amounts of text they can't undertand - that's the worst reading experience.

                  Which is, ultimately, why I gravitate towards using an action line. In addition to the one-line-is-better-than-three thing, I feel like somebody speaking in an incomprehensible language is an action more than it's a line of dialog.

                  YMMV.
                  Well, I rarely use enough foreign language in a script to worry about it. I tend to use enough to just parenthetical it and leave it at that. In the cases where I've had whole scenes with it, then I do note it in the action lines.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Dialogue with subtitles

                    there is probably a rule here. Not sure I know it.

                    you figure if it adds to the character and the storytelling then it's a must. --really the rule is, cut anything not necessary.

                    e.g. Two villians are planning on escaping justice and use a foreign tounge to tell us the audience, now we wait in suspense to see if the hero will be taken by them. Also character, the young buddy that the hero is not quite sure about proves he's invaluable when he thwarts their actions by understanding the set up and warning the hero.

                    Or even the main character, with dialogue afterwards, (foreign tounge) I spent time in your native country as a Bounty hunter.

                    Maybe it doesn't even need to be said. Like a caucasion PI in Japantown knows Japanese, so in the end-when he kills the bad bad guy with a samurai sword-it becomes believable or at least we accept it.
                    But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Dialogue with subtitles

                      Wow- much replies over the weekend! Thanks folks!

                      Well, first I think I have to clarify the situation in MY script a bit

                      I have some "areas of action / people":
                      *the CIA-central in Kabul and the American Air Base = speaking English, of course
                      *the Russian Mobsters among each others = speaking Russian
                      *the Afghani, 'normal' population and Taliban = speaking Pashtun and Farsi



                      AND two agents, a Russian and an American. Both speak the native languages, and they should talk to each other in English (for reasons of practic filmmaking^^)

                      I cannot put something likes "he barks orders in Farsi" in the action line, because it is significant dialogue we're talking about - major characters speak the language.

                      I'm more incertain than ever before.... but I tend to putting parentheticals for the language in. And nearly all has to be subtitled)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Dialogue with subtitles

                        I speak English, but if I'm in Japan, I'll speak Japanese. But if I stub my toe or something strikes some emotion in me, I'll swear or sigh in English.

                        My point is, sometimes it's worth bringing out a character's native tongue to add further emotion.

                        If your character has been speaking English throughout, then he bursts out with this line in his native tongue about killing someone?...then I think it has greater impact than if it were left as English.

                        Same goes for what someone said above. He might be speaking another language for another reason, like maybe he doesn't want someone else in the room to know what he said and just his henchman? - but whatever it is; we as the audience/reader need to know what was said so we know what we are meant to think/feel.

                        It's your story.

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